Carry Gun Match Observations

[chezuki]

Solution to the cover/concealment debacle:

We put Rhino in a chair downrange (next to the targets, NOT behind them... safety first). If he can see the shooter, they get a procedural for every shot fired while visible. If rhino catches a bullet, the shooter will receive ONE stern warning and a NS penalty. Subsequent hits on Rhino will result in immediate DQ.

 

[jwo483]

Solution to the cover/concealment debacle:

We put Rhino in a chair downrange (next to the targets, NOT behind them... safety first). If he can see the shooter, they get a procedural for every shot fired while visible. If rhino catches a bullet, the shooter will receive ONE stern warning and a NS penalty. Subsequent hits on Rhino will result in immediate DQ.

OK ! I'm down with this !

 

[Coach]

Rhino will get distracted by the muzzle flashes and be looking at the wrong thing.

 

[saintnick81]

Coach, when you talk about calling shots do you mean knowing where a shot hits before seeing the actual hit on the target? I have seen you reference this in several posts and just want to make sure I understand what you are talking about.

 

[rhino]

Solution to the cover/concealment debacle:

We put Rhino in a chair downrange (next to the targets, NOT behind them... safety first). If he can see the shooter, they get a procedural for every shot fired while visible. If rhino catches a bullet, the shooter will receive ONE stern warning and a NS penalty. Subsequent hits on Rhino will result in immediate DQ.

OK ! I'm down with this !

I never liked you two.


Re: fuzzy front sight because of visual problems

Many of us can no longer see the front sight in crystal clear focus and never will again. I haven't seen my front sight clearly with my regular glasses (progressives) for years. To do so, I have to tilt my head backward and it's just not going to happen unless I'm just casually shooting groups.

Here's the thing: you don't need to see your front sight clearly in sharp focus to make good hits on the targets we're shooting. As long as you can see it well enough to confirm that it's roughly centered in the notch and the fuzzy top is about even with the fuzzy top of the rear, you have the gun pointed in the right direction. They key then is to press the trigger directly to the rear without disturbing the alignment of the gun until the bullet leaves the muzzle.

It bears repeating that most of the missing we do collectively as a group has little to do with aiming and a lot to do with trigger control.

Example: we had a stage at the second carry gun match with an IDPA target at about 18 yards with a t-shirt covering it. I fired three shots at it (I think 3 were designated) and all three hits were in a group smaller than my palm inside the top portion of the down-zero circle. I was looking at a fuzzy front sight with a fuzzy green dot (from the Sig X-Ray Sights) on each shot and I saw the front sight lift and settle, then I pressed a second and third time each time it dropped into the notch. That's not bullseye shooting at 50 yards, but it's an example of seeing what you need to see and then executing a good trigger press.

When you can't see the front sight at all is when you need to consider an alternative to using conventional iron sights. The obvious options are red dots and lasers, but there are other low tech solutions that work if you let them. For instance, Jim Cirrillo, famously of the NYPD stakeout squad in the 1960s or 70s, was a champion PPC shooter in addtion to being a cop. When he was on the stakeout squad, he noted that when he was shooting criminals that he could see the serrations on his front sight. As he got older, he could not longer see the front sight clearly. Eventually he developed his "silhouette" point method, which was not point shooting. It was using a different part of the gun to aim. He knew from experience how the back side of the gun looked when his gun was aligned with the target, so he started using the silhouette of the back of the gun to confirm alignment with the target, then executed a world-class good trigger press.

 

[rvb]

Re: fuzzy front sight because of visual problems

Many of us can no longer see the front sight in crystal clear focus and never will again. I haven't seen my front sight clearly with my regular glasses (progressives) for years. To do so, I have to tilt my head backward and it's just not going to happen unless I'm just casually shooting groups.

Here's the thing: you don't need to see your front sight clearly in sharp focus to make good hits on the targets we're shooting. As long as you can see it well enough to confirm that it's roughly centered in the notch and the fuzzy top is about even with the fuzzy top of the rear, you have the gun pointed in the right direction. They key then is to press the trigger directly to the rear without disturbing the alignment of the gun until the bullet leaves the muzzle.

It bears repeating that most of the missing we do collectively as a group has little to do with aiming and a lot to do with trigger control.

lotso truth there. I was debating about deep diving the vision thing, but didn't feel like it. But we could also talk about FS focus vs target focus and it's [minimal] impact on accuracy for example... or that a mental focus or attention on the FS doesn't always require a visual or optical focus on the FS....

... still need to see enough to call the shot, even if not as precisely as with a pure crystal FS focus...

-rvb

 

[rvb]

Coach, when you talk about calling shots do you mean knowing where a shot hits before seeing the actual hit on the target? I have seen you reference this in several posts and just want to make sure I understand what you are talking about.

basically. it's knowing where the bullet hit on the target based on the alignment of the front/rear sights and their alignment to the target.

If you can do that you
- are looking at the sights
- are not flinching
- can track the sight through recoil to be ready to align the next shot
- will recognize when you are NOT aligned correctly
- will not be surprised by a miss
- will be able to quickly make up shots that suck
- are not tempted to look at the target to 'score' it mid shoot

-rvb

 

[Coach]

Coach, when you talk about calling shots do you mean knowing where a shot hits before seeing the actual hit on the target? I have seen you reference this in several posts and just want to make sure I understand what you are talking about.

Calling the shot is knowing where the round went by reading the front sight. Done properly you know the hit or miss before the bullet gets there. Where the front sight lifts from is where that hit is. You have to be looking at the front sight to do it. It can be done on every shot and done at speed with practice. Getting it down at the five to ten yard distance does not take too much time if you work at it. Doing at 25 yards gets much tougher and take more development.

rvb gave some good info as well. You have to be looking at the Front Sight to do it. You have time to look at the front sight.

Engaging multiple targets/threats is a great place to utilize the skill. If my sights are on the target and I start the trigger press and start moving the gun at the same time then I have a good chance of pulling off the target. If I shoot hammers or double taps then I have no idea about when it is appropriate to move the gun to the next target. Controlled pairs is better than a hammer or double tap any time.

When the front sight lifts the bullet is out of the gun. If I am shooting two targets twice each. Then I need to see my sight lift on the second shot on the first target before moving the gun to the second target.

When being done properly it feels very slow. However the timer says different. You can train yourself to see faster.

 

[jwo483]

As long as we can all be adults and not get all butthurt because somebody wasnt utilizing cover "properly" I would hope it would be OK. Its not like we are playing the game for guns or cash prizes so it really shouldnt matter if a shooter's leg isnt totally behind the barrier. As long as the shooter is leaning and is utilizing it I'd be OK. (and we dont/cant have targets that require crazy angles to get around due to the venue which seems to be what causes issues.)

Unfortunately with IDPA there were just too many people taking it way too seriously. Granted I've only been shooting IDPA for a handful of years, but I havent personally seen any issues with subjective cover calls being an issue before the lines were implemented.

And this isnt USPSA or IDPA. So Coach doesnt necessarily need to follow their cover rules to prevent contention. Setting more relaxed rules could help mitigate butthurt by the hardcore gamers.

I saw MANY subjective cover calls before the fault lines. There's a club in Michigan that used to take pride in how many cover calls it's SO's handed out. I agree however that some kind of barrier would make it more interesting.

Sent from my SM-T377P using Tapatalk

 

[Coach]

Here is some video from several years ago. You cannot see the two paper targets that I shot twice each. There were drop turners, which means they appear and then quickly disappear. The board behind the falling poppers activated the drop turners at the same time. It was cool stage that Warsaw put together.

Each shot was aimed. A skill that would be handy on the street. Many people could get this done.

[video=youtube;zeWOUKLyROA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeWOUKLyROA&list=PLRl7BYA4NxYdpu-1UGCu7wsVYtTx41_20&index=3[/video]

 

[Topshot]

It is not the odds of needing a gun but the stakes. That is the way Tom Givens describes it. He has the data and the experience. Why are you confident that you can out shoot a perp? Because you are that good or because they are that bad or a combination. Clyde Barrow was pretty good. You cannot count on them sucking. You cannot count on the bad guys not getting lucky. They do have several things in their favor. Plus anyone of us can miss. How much practice do you have in a stress filled environment?


Magazines are the biggest problem with malfunctions, why would you only carry one? If it is sometimes needed how do you know your situation will not need it. BTDT people usually carry a back up gun.


I don't know you and I am not a liberal in the respect that I am going to tell you how to live. But it seems from posts in this thread that you are making decisions more about what you want than the way things are and what history tells us. I hope none of us have to ever test our skills in this arena, but if we do the right people come out on top.

If I was LE/M, I would carry more. Ironically, Tom's statistics (and those from Active Self Protection) are largely how I made my decision. I'm sure they and others have said other things (e.g., Tom recommending a BUG even though they're very rarely used), so feel free to add links to stats that indicate civilian use of BUGs and more than 10 rounds. Sure I could run into Clyde, but I don't think anyone with even several pistols is going to hold up to full auto 30-06.

Here's the thing: you don't need to see your front sight clearly in sharp focus to make good hits on the targets we're shooting. As long as you can see it well enough to confirm that it's roughly centered in the notch and the fuzzy top is about even with the fuzzy top of the rear, you have the gun pointed in the right direction. They key then is to press the trigger directly to the rear without disturbing the alignment of the gun until the bullet leaves the muzzle.

Precisely. That is what I'm working toward.

 

[Coach]

If I was LE/M, I would carry more. Ironically, Tom's statistics (and those from Active Self Protection) are largely how I made my decision. I'm sure they and others have said other things (e.g., Tom recommending a BUG even though they're very rarely used), so feel free to add links to stats that indicate civilian use of BUGs and more than 10 rounds. Sure I could run into Clyde, but I don't think anyone with even several pistols is going to hold up to full auto 30-06.


Precisely. That is what I'm working toward.

Well you are likely right. How are you doing in IDPA competition? Where do you fall on the scoresheet? Someone who can out shoot the majority of criminals with no cover is obviously doing very well. Tell me about how well you have done when no one was shooting at you which is obviously easier that when someone is shooting at you.

Take Tom's statistics and ignore his recommendations. Makes seven kinds of sense.

 

[jkdbjj]

Calling shots, by Travis Tomasi:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q1XC8k-tZc

 

[NHT3]

Topshot.. I would never begin to try to speak for Coach but in simple terms I believe he's trying to impress some of Murphy's law into the equation. With your life possibly on the line it's better to be over prepared and not to underestimate your possible opponent. I've heard BehindblueIs say the FIRST thing he hears from victims of self defense shootings is "it didn't happen the way I thought it would". I'm going out on a limb and say, I believe the most life threatening thing you can in a self defense situation is to make ANY assumption about your opponent.

[FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member / [/FONT]Basic Pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] / RSO[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]"Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That's why we train so hard" [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Unnamed Navy Seal[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
“Ego is the reason many men do not shoot competition. They don't want to suck in public”

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Aron Bright[/FONT]

 

[Topshot]

Well you are likely right. How are you doing in IDPA competition? Where do you fall on the scoresheet? Someone who can out shoot the majority of criminals with no cover is obviously doing very well. Tell me about how well you have done when no one was shooting at you which is obviously easier that when someone is shooting at you.

I'll let you know after next Sat. Certainly not expecting much the first time out since I've just started shooting again after 20+ years and I didn't shoot a lot of pistol back then either. Now I'll be focusing on defensive pistol training so will improve as the year goes on, especially after I decide which pistol will be my EDC and get better sights on it.

Do you know of any statistics that suggest that criminals shoot well? Pretty much everything I have seen, read and heard would indicate otherwise. They don't train. I couldn't find anything that indicated whether Clyde trained, just that he was "good with a gun", probably because he killed a bunch of people. He relied mostly on overwhelming firepower from what I could find.

Take Tom's statistics and ignore his recommendations. Makes seven kinds of sense.

I can't find a summary of his recommendations. It would be interesting to know what % of his students and other civilians lost (as opposed to forfeit) because they didn't follow them in varying degrees or won because they did follow them.

Topshot.. I would never begin to try to speak for Coach but in simple terms I believe he's trying to impress some of Murphy's law into the equation. With your life possibly on the line it's better to be over prepared and not to underestimate your possible opponent. I've heard BehindblueIs say the FIRST thing he hears from victims of self defense shootings is "it didn't happen the way I thought it would". I'm going out on a limb and say, I believe the most life threatening thing you can in a self defense situation is to make ANY assumption about your opponent.

I know it's probably coming across like I'm assuming I'll be fine because the perp can't shoot but that's not the case. Even if they can't shoot they can still get lucky (or have tons of bullets). As an engineer I look at the statistics and that says it's within 7 yards, a handful of shots, etc. Sure it may not happen that way but I can't prepare for everything, but at least I'd be bringing a gun to the fight which is better than the 3 students that forfeited. Just like the BSA slogan, "Be Prepared" doesn't mean bring the kitchen sink, but use what's between your ears, I think SA, mindset, quickness and shot placement is what will determine 99% of civilian encounters. If I happen to run into the 1%, I'll just get to go home sooner than I thought.

 

[bwframe]

 

[Coach]

I look forward to hearing how the first match goes. The criminals that beat the FBI in 1986 shot and practiced a lot. Active shooters hit much higher percentage of their shots than Law Enforcement does. I don't run in criminal circles so I do not know their habits and they likely are not submitting that information anywhere for the good of the cause.

Tom has a monthly newsletter that he generally posts on INGO. You can do to his website and see back issues. He wrote a book. There are plenty of recommendations there. Take a class with him or some other competent instructor.

Clyde Barrow practiced, and he won a few fights not just executing people.

 

[rvb]

gang members and criminal types were known to practice at some indoor ranges near where I used to live south of Baltimore. Those from DC were known to practice at a range east of DC. At the range near me where I was a member, I was asked to keep an eye on the desk and to hang around after they closed while they packed up many times as I shot matches with and was friends with some of the staff. Had to peg the SA walking out to the car and often would take long way home incl doubling back and going around random blocks to make sure I wasn't followed home from the range (it had happened). There were two random gang initiation murders in my neighborhood in the 5 yrs I lived in that house (and I lived in a nice neighborhood, just the trash heap was a little too close). I have no reason to think bad guys in IN wouldn't practice, also. Maybe they aren't attending tactical courses, however, many have been in the military.

I hope to be better, but I don't want to assume I'm better. The random guy at the public range next to you may be working to get better for reasons different than you.

2c

-rvb

 

[Topshot]

The criminals that beat the FBI in 1986 shot and practiced a lot. Active shooters hit much higher percentage of their shots than Law Enforcement does.

Didn't know the former. The latter doesn't surprise me much given some LEO seem to only shoot once a year for qualification

Tom has a monthly newsletter that he generally posts on INGO. You can do to his website and see back issues. He wrote a book. There are plenty of recommendations there. Take a class with him or some other competent instructor.

I couldn't find a newsletter where he summarized his recommendations. Maybe he never has in one issue. I do intend to take some classes as well.

gang members and criminal types were known to practice at some indoor ranges near where I used to live south of Baltimore. Those from DC were known to practice at a range east of DC. At the range near me where I was a member, I was asked to keep an eye on the desk and to hang around after they closed while they packed up many times as I shot matches with and was friends with some of the staff. Had to peg the SA walking out to the car and often would take long way home incl doubling back and going around random blocks to make sure I wasn't followed home from the range (it had happened). There were two random gang initiation murders in my neighborhood in the 5 yrs I lived in that house (and I lived in a nice neighborhood, just the trash heap was a little too close). I have no reason to think bad guys in IN wouldn't practice, also. Maybe they aren't attending tactical courses, however, many have been in the military.

I hope to be better, but I don't want to assume I'm better.

Exactly.

Thanks for your anecdotal info. It's true a non-insignificant portion of inmates have been military. I know of several personally because I do prison ministry. I also know some murderers and gang members. I only normally see 2 guys right now and and one doesn't fit the profile for sure but maybe they'd be willing to comment on what they've heard at least regarding this because it fascinates me.

 

[saintnick81]

Calling the shot is knowing where the round went by reading the front sight. Done properly you know the hit or miss before the bullet gets there. Where the front sight lifts from is where that hit is. You have to be looking at the front sight to do it. It can be done on every shot and done at speed with practice. Getting it down at the five to ten yard distance does not take too much time if you work at it. Doing at 25 yards gets much tougher and take more development.

rvb gave some good info as well. You have to be looking at the Front Sight to do it. You have time to look at the front sight.

Engaging multiple targets/threats is a great place to utilize the skill. If my sights are on the target and I start the trigger press and start moving the gun at the same time then I have a good chance of pulling off the target. If I shoot hammers or double taps then I have no idea about when it is appropriate to move the gun to the next target. Controlled pairs is better than a hammer or double tap any time.

When the front sight lifts the bullet is out of the gun. If I am shooting two targets twice each. Then I need to see my sight lift on the second shot on the first target before moving the gun to the second target.

When being done properly it feels very slow. However the timer says different. You can train yourself to see faster.

Thanks. And thanks to rvb as well. I consider myself to be fairly competent but I am always trying to learn and improve. Hoping life will slow down so I can get to one of the carry gun matches or even some of the closer uspsa matches and see how I do with the pressure of the clock.