Dan Wesson valor 10mm ss galling up during break in

[churchmouse]

I kept all of the emails I had exchanged with Bob Serva of Fusion while trying to get a 40 cal Fusion 2011 to run, for a while. Eventually deleted them because have them around just brought the bile back up.
Sold that gun for the worst loss I've ever taken on a gun and was just glad to be rid of it.

We have used a lot of parts from Fusion over time. Mostly with good results. Never owned one of their guns.

 

[Brad69]

Man I thought Fusion was OK !

10mm Commanders are hard to find RIA makes one?

 

[Grelber]

We have used a lot of parts from Fusion over time. Mostly with good results. Never owned one of their guns.

As far as I can tell it seems like they do a good job buying and selling parts.
As a custom gun maker they tend to sell a lot of nice cosmetics for about 30% under what it takes to get cosmetics plus a good build from their competitors. People who get lucky or who are just buying safe fillers come out ok.

 

[churchmouse]

Man I thought Fusion was OK !

10mm Commanders are hard to find RIA makes one?

Built up from some Fusion parts. Slide/frame.

 

[Grelber]

Man I thought Fusion was OK !

10mm Commanders are hard to find RIA makes one?

I'm sure there are many who think Fusion is fine, just because I wouldn't give you a nickel for a bag full of them doesn't mean you would not have great luck.

This thing looks cool Dan Wesson Bruin - Dan Wesson .

 

[Bosshoss]

Interesting thread.
I wonder what DW is doing different with SS that creates more warranty issues and a unique ( ??? ) need for a special lube.
Machining, composition, heat treatment?

This is my take on SS in firearms.
SS is a very soft metal in its base form and not magnetic.
The way firearms manufactures make it hard enough to work on revolvers and semi-autos is add carbon to the SS and that makes the SS tougher or "harder". That is why your "stainless gun is magnetic as it has a lot of carbon in the SS.
This is why a SS gun will rust because of the carbon content in the SS.

It is a thin line between not enough carbon and to much.
A example is a S&W revolver(since this is what I work on all the time) I have seen SS guns with 100 rounds thru them that the cylinder notches are already peened badly from SS that is too soft. I have a SS gun that I use for dryfire that has 1.5+ MILLION dryfires and 50K live fire on it and no sign of peening cylinder notches(perfect hardness IMO) and I beat on that gun when I dryfire.

A SS slide moving on a SS frame everything has to be right on the amount of carbon or you can/will get galling.
AMT was the first(IIRC) to do a SS frame and slide and learned the hard way about this.
Things have improved since then with better control and knowledge of the the correct steels to resist this.

The OP had one that had problems and I'm sure Dan Wesson will fix it.


I prefer a carbon steel frame and slide with a hard chrome or DLC for durability if it was a everyday carry or competition gun. A range gun or house gun SS is great.

 

[MindfulMan]

Built up from some Fusion parts. Slide/frame.

Is that one of the 'Riley' guns ? (perhaps one that we PM'ed about .... a couple of years ago ?)
.... or is that one of your newer builds, Thor ?

 

[Hohn]

This is my take on SS in firearms.
SS is a very soft metal in its base form and not magnetic.
The way firearms manufactures make it hard enough to work on revolvers and semi-autos is add carbon to the SS and that makes the SS tougher or "harder". That is why your "stainless gun is magnetic as it has a lot of carbon in the SS.
This is why a SS gun will rust because of the carbon content in the SS.

It is a thin line between not enough carbon and to much.
A example is a S&W revolver(since this is what I work on all the time) I have seen SS guns with 100 rounds thru them that the cylinder notches are already peened badly from SS that is too soft. I have a SS gun that I use for dryfire that has 1.5+ MILLION dryfires and 50K live fire on it and no sign of peening cylinder notches(perfect hardness IMO) and I beat on that gun when I dryfire.

A SS slide moving on a SS frame everything has to be right on the amount of carbon or you can/will get galling.
AMT was the first(IIRC) to do a SS frame and slide and learned the hard way about this.
Things have improved since then with better control and knowledge of the the correct steels to resist this.

The OP had one that had problems and I'm sure Dan Wesson will fix it.


I prefer a carbon steel frame and slide with a hard chrome or DLC for durability if it was a everyday carry or competition gun. A range gun or house gun SS is great.

That's not technically true ^^.

Iron has several allotropes. Pearlite. Ferrite. Martensite. Austenite. Cementite. Each of these will exist in different conditions, and they are all iron.

There are in "base form" both magnetic and non-magnetic grades of stainless steel. The 300 series is generally not magnetic, but some are paramagnetic. Ferritic grades are magnetic. (These are the cheap grades your "stainless" gas grill is made from, and why it rusts terribly).

Carbon content has essentially nothing at all to do with corrosion. Corrosion resistance comes form the amount of free chromium available to passivate. More chromium, less corrosion. MOre carbon, less chromium because the chromium will form chromium carbides instead of remaining as free chromium.

Carbon content has almost nothing to do with magnetics. Allotropy does.


Finally, heat treat more than anything determines whether any grade of stainless will be "soft" or "hard". Some grades of stainless can't be hardened by traditional means (17-4 PH-- the PH is Precipitation Hardening and it's hard enough to make gears out of, but you can't quench and temper it).

Carbon content alone has little to no correlation to galling resistance. It's just not that simple, as the heat treat, the actual chemistry, and finish roughness, even the "lay" of the grain all matter a lot more.

I'm not a metallurgist. But I've picked up a fair bit osmotically due to job requirements.

 

[samspartan]

That's not technically true ^^.

Iron has several allotropes. Pearlite. Ferrite. Martensite. Austenite. Cementite. Each of these will exist in different conditions, and they are all iron.

There are in "base form" both magnetic and non-magnetic grades of stainless steel. The 300 series is generally not magnetic, but some are paramagnetic. Ferritic grades are magnetic. (These are the cheap grades your "stainless" gas grill is made from, and why it rusts terribly).

Carbon content has essentially nothing at all to do with corrosion. Corrosion resistance comes form the amount of free chromium available to passivate. More chromium, less corrosion. MOre carbon, less chromium because the chromium will form chromium carbides instead of remaining as free chromium.

Carbon content has almost nothing to do with magnetics. Allotropy does.


Finally, heat treat more than anything determines whether any grade of stainless will be "soft" or "hard". Some grades of stainless can't be hardened by traditional means (17-4 PH-- the PH is Precipitation Hardening and it's hard enough to make gears out of, but you can't quench and temper it).

Carbon content alone has little to no correlation to galling resistance. It's just not that simple, as the heat treat, the actual chemistry, and finish roughness, even the "lay" of the grain all matter a lot more.

I'm not a metallurgist. But I've picked up a fair bit osmotically due to job requirements.

This is a lot closer to what I have learned both at work and in tech classes. We have many different grades of stainless steel at lilly. Most of my manufactoring jobs were also food related so almost everything was stainless. Most issues with bearings galling were either improper heat treatment or no oil/grease.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

[churchmouse]

Is that one of the 'Riley' guns ? (perhaps one that we PM'ed about .... a couple of years ago ?)
.... or is that one of your newer builds, Thor ?

Not a Riley piece.

 

[MindfulMan]

Not a Riley piece.

got'cha. it still looks good ! Someday, I need to get me a commander length 1911, for sure.

 

[Bosshoss]

That's not technically true ^^.

Iron has several allotropes. Pearlite. Ferrite. Martensite. Austenite. Cementite. Each of these will exist in different conditions, and they are all iron.

There are in "base form" both magnetic and non-magnetic grades of stainless steel. The 300 series is generally not magnetic, but some are paramagnetic. Ferritic grades are magnetic. (These are the cheap grades your "stainless" gas grill is made from, and why it rusts terribly).

Carbon content has essentially nothing at all to do with corrosion. Corrosion resistance comes form the amount of free chromium available to passivate. More chromium, less corrosion. MOre carbon, less chromium because the chromium will form chromium carbides instead of remaining as free chromium.

Carbon content has almost nothing to do with magnetics. Allotropy does.


Finally, heat treat more than anything determines whether any grade of stainless will be "soft" or "hard". Some grades of stainless can't be hardened by traditional means (17-4 PH-- the PH is Precipitation Hardening and it's hard enough to make gears out of, but you can't quench and temper it).

Carbon content alone has little to no correlation to galling resistance. It's just not that simple, as the heat treat, the actual chemistry, and finish roughness, even the "lay" of the grain all matter a lot more.

I'm not a metallurgist. But I've picked up a fair bit osmotically due to job requirements.

I'm not a metallurgist either. I did take a couple of classes during my apprenticeship but that was almost 40 years ago( ) and I don't remember much of it.
I know that there are many different kinds of SS with each having different properties and uses.
I have always understood that SS with no or low carbon content is non-hardenable and highly corrosion resistance.
While carbon might not be the only thing that affects this the SS that are harder/hardenable seem to have higher carbon content and also seem to be less corrosion resistance.
Just my observations and I realize that there are other things in SS that affects all of this but that is above my pay grade and since I'm working on a already finished product that I can't change any of that after the fact.

I spent 30 years working with CRS, WHS, OHS on dies but very little SS and when I did it was when I was in the machine shop and had to make repair pieces for a piece of machinery in the plant.

You obviously know more about SS than I do and thanks for posting the info.

I do see the differences in SS and other steels I work with in the revolvers I work on with some being harder than others of the same brand. Lots of difference between SS and a blue or nickle revolver.

 

[Hopper]

I've been following this thread for a while with interest, as I do have some DW's in my stable that among others have never ever given me the slightest bit of concern over galling. I tend to use either Slip or Lucas synthetic as my lubricants of choice. But as I was thinking more about some of the scientific metallurgical posts, it dawned on me that ALL my Commander and Officer frames are alloy with steel slides, not steel-on-steel. Given the different materials involved in my 1911s, I suspect this gives me leeway that steel-on-steel would/does not, yes?

 

[MindfulMan]

I've been following this thread for a while with interest, as I do have some DW's in my stable that among others have never ever given me the slightest bit of concern over galling. I tend to use either Slick or Lucas synthetic as my lubricants of choice. But as I was thinking more about some of the scientific metallurgical posts, it dawned on me that ALL my Commander and Officer frames are alloy with steel slides, not steel-on-steel. Given the different materials involved in my 1911s, I suspect this gives me leeway that steel-on-steel would/does not, yes?

I'm interested in your question also, Hopper !

 

[Hohn]

I've been following this thread for a while with interest, as I do have some DW's in my stable that among others have never ever given me the slightest bit of concern over galling. I tend to use either Slick or Lucas synthetic as my lubricants of choice. But as I was thinking more about some of the scientific metallurgical posts, it dawned on me that ALL my Commander and Officer frames are alloy with steel slides, not steel-on-steel. Given the different materials involved in my 1911s, I suspect this gives me leeway that steel-on-steel would/does not, yes?

Generally, yes.

But again, the actual alloy, actual finish, actual hardness, etc will cause much variability.

 

[Grelber]

With guns, when they say "alloy frame" what does that really mean? I'm assuming (dangerous) that in a technical sense most hard parts are alloys.

 

[Hopper]

My Rugers are an aluminum alloy, as the DW frames are as well, though I suspect the alloy compositions between the two manufacturers differ. The Ruger frames have an annodized frame finish. I believe the DW alloy frames are also annodized, and the slides have their proprietary "Duty" treatment.

 

[samspartan]

Well got it back...new scratches on slide.look like from a vise. Was a pristine gun.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

[deo62]

I have no words..send these pics to DW and ask them to explain.

 

[samspartan]

Just sent them to keith

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk