Discussion of establishing a Church security/safety team

[Brad69]

What is this anti gun church vibe I seem to be getting from most of the posters in this thread?
Seems like a large pecenctage of Church goers are anti gun?
Where does the apprehension of weapons in a church belief come from?
Church's seem to be like a real life “book of faces” with some god stuff in the background!

 

[T.Lex]

What is this anti gun church vibe I seem to be getting from most of the posters in this thread?
Seems like a large pecenctage of Church goers are anti gun?
Where does the apprehension of weapons in a church belief come from?
Church's seem to be like a real life “book of faces” with some god stuff in the background!

I think most modern American churchgoers are gun-neutral. It just isn't part of their life experience.

They don't want to take them away from anyone. They just don't want to be around them.

 

[alabasterjar]

What is this anti gun church vibe I seem to be getting from most of the posters in this thread?
Seems like a large pecenctage of Church goers are anti gun?
Where does the apprehension of weapons in a church belief come from?
Church's seem to be like a real life “book of faces” with some god stuff in the background!

Not a book of faces guy, so I can't comment on anything but my experience. Our church is definitely not anti gun. I'll try to comment on that later, but both men's and women's ministries have shooting events a couple times a year...

 

[BrettonJudy7]

I think most modern American churchgoers are gun-neutral. It just isn't part of their life experience.

They don't want to take them away from anyone. They just don't want to be around them.

I disagree. At least in my experiences, I have seen much more 2nd amendment supporters from the church. This is not meaning that they love guns, but meaning that they support the right to defend themselves. In Luke 22, Jesus tells his disciples to sell their cloaks, and buy swords. There are many cases for self-defense in the Bible, and the Bible justifies it. It is the right thing to do to protect citizens from senseless violence and murder. (Romans 13:4, Exodus 22:2-3, Proverbs 22:26, Pslam 82:4)

In the case of religious persecution though, that is, being attacking for being a Christian, we are called not to fight back, as this is what is to be expected of a sinful world. (Romans 12:17 - 19, John 15:18 - 19, 1 John 3:13, Proverbs 24:29,

 

[Brad69]

Ah the Puritan influences that will probably lead to the end of Christianity.

The whole meekness of the modern church thing?

 

[T.Lex]

This is not meaning that they love guns, but meaning that they support the right to defend themselves.

My friend, I don't think we really disagree much at all.

 

[Brad69]

The book of faces is a jab at the drama, hurt feelings, ect that happen in most church’s!

 

[ChristianPatriot]

What is this anti gun church vibe I seem to be getting from most of the posters in this thread?
Seems like a large pecenctage of Church goers are anti gun?
Where does the apprehension of weapons in a church belief come from?
Church's seem to be like a real life “book of faces” with some god stuff in the background!

A whole thread about sharing ways for church’s to arm themselves and you’re getting an anti-gun vibe from that?

I haven’t attended a lot of different denominations but I have been around a LOT of Baptist Churches, and I’ve never once seen an anti-gun vibe. More to the contrary, very pro-2a.

 

[BrettonJudy7]

My friend, I don't think we really disagree much at all.

It seems we may have a lot of the same experiences as well

 

[Brad69]

Yes if you read the entire thread some are meeting resistance from church members that are anti gun or gun neutral.

My experience is that some denominations are far different than others some are very anti gun from the pulpit!

 

[historian]

Yes is you read the entire thread some are meeting resistance from church members that are anti gun or gun neutral.

My experience is that some denominations are far different than others some are very anti gun from the pulpit!

It is more generational imho. My prior church was very pro-gun. I think we went around and figured there were about 30-40 guns at church every Sunday. And that was the ones we knew.

That being said, there were some older people who didn't believe guns should be in church. Just a respect issue for them I guess.

 

[JettaKnight]

It is more generational imho. My prior church was very pro-gun. I think we went around and figured there were about 30-40 guns at church every Sunday. And that was the ones we knew.

That being said, there were some older people who didn't believe guns should be in church. Just a respect issue for them I guess.

They probably said the same thing about guitars.

Really, I wish I had more to add to this thread than jokes, but I posted about all I know up front and now I'm just learning.

I do have this:

Last night the Pastor discussed this topic in a small(er) group that included my wife. She said he said that we has several armed individuals and in his research came across a megachurch that would escort anyone caught carrying & unauthorized black to their car where they could stash it or leave.

My wife leaned over to her friend and wished that if that practice started, we be out the door for good.

 

[thunderchicken]

What is this anti gun church vibe I seem to be getting from most of the posters in this thread?
Seems like a large pecenctage of Church goers are anti gun?
Where does the apprehension of weapons in a church belief come from?
Church's seem to be like a real life “book of faces” with some god stuff in the background!

The church I belong to is very firm in our support of the 2A. It is our policy that we will not infringe on ones right to carry. We have a congregation between 80-90 people and I know of 9 members that could be armed at anytime.
Sure churches will have some drama among the collective group. But that is no different than anytime there are multiple people involved. We still have our own faults to work through.
I think the apprehension of some comes from their perceptions of what is acceptable and what's not. I grew up going to church. As a kid it was common that the vast majority dressed up for church. Now the majority are dressed in jeans or business casual. I have seen social norms change in our church over the years and I think church used to be more accepted as a sort of safe haven

Edit- I was informed by our pastor that he recieved an email news letter from the conference advising that churches look at implementing more safety measures and review what may already be in place.

 

[spencer rifle]

The attitudes at our church range from "I saw a gun and was traumatized" to "meh" to "I won't carry but I'm glad you do" to "Why aren't you carrying at church?" After the last sad event attitudes are moving more toward the latter sentiments. It helps that we are also there for medical and weather emergencies, with tornado shelter plans and strategies to reunite children with their parents ASAP.

 

[rhino]

A lot of Catholics and some Protestant denominations are actively anti-RKBA. The Medthodist organization, for instance, it among them. Google is your friend!

Re: setting-up crossfires

I hope that anyone who considers arranging potential responders for what is essentially an ambush (which is a good thing when you can manage it) of an attacker, PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING. If you don't have relevant military experience, please consult with someone who does. What may look good to you on paper or from reading a book may not work in real life the way you expect.

 

[thunderchicken]

Rhino- I agree quality training is a must.

 

[JettaKnight]

A lot of Catholics and some Protestant denominations are actively anti-RKBA. The Medthodist organization, for instance, it among them. Google is your friend!

"Mainline denominations" is the term you're after.

 

[saintnick81]

I am a member of our church's life safety team. While myself and several other members have been carrying for several years, it's just been in the last 18 months that we have put together something more formal, while still not in writing. Our main focus this past year is preparing for the things that are most likely to happen, such as an elderly member having a heart attack, a fire, or a child getting a cut, scrape or burn. One of the things our pastor(a former state trooper) talked about when we started this is to make sure that we aren't so focused on being the safety team that it takes away from our worship.

Some of the things we have already completed:
-Made sure we have enough fire extinguishers and that they are located in the proper places.
-Installed first aid kits in several spots in the building and in the auxiliary buildings.
-We now lock all but one door once service starts. At least one member of the team sits near that door during service with a clean line of sight/fire.
-We have replaced some older doors this year and the new doors have shatterproof film on the glass.
-Made sure all of our emergency lighting is working.

Plans for the next year:
-CPR certification for anyone that works with the children/youth and any member that wants certified. We have former member that is now a fireman/cpr instructor that is going to come in and train anyone that wants to learn in exchange for a donation to his department.
-Members of the Life Safety team will be taking first aid/trauma medicine training.
-Installing at least one AED in the building.
-My brother is currently drawing up emergency evacuation maps to post in the building with exits, first aid kits, fire extinguishers, etc listed.
-Currently working on putting together a duffel bag that will have several trauma kits inside. Each kit will be in a gallon freezer bag and will include a tourniquet, quickclot gauze, chest seal, Israeli Bandage, duct tape, and gloves. Let me know if there is something else we should be including.
-More time training as a team, including running some scenarios inside the building.
-I carry a messenger bag that has my Bible, note book, pens, highlighters, etc in it and I am going to add a small trauma/first aid kit to that as well. Suggestions on what to put in there appreciated.

Myself and two other members attended a Sheepdog seminar last year and we were not impressed. It felt to us like an 8 hour sales pitch so we did not purchase the kit they had for sale. I have heard from people that attended other events that they got a lot out of it. It seems from some that I have talked to that they tend to change their presentation depending on the crowd and the event we attended was put on by the well armed woman in Cincinnati and heavily attend by females. I would be interested to know more about what is in the church security kit they sell.

 

[thunderchicken]

Saint- that sounds like great progress. I really like the idea of several trauma kits made up in gallon zip lock bags and placed into a duffle bag.

I too have heard mixed reviews of some of the sheepdog seminars. I think I am going to consult some people here on some training options. I am also working on having a guest show up and make note of tgeir observations. I really believe we have a tendency to not notice things the same way as a guest might.
A couple years ago we worked with the firemarshall and updated our exit signs and emergency lighting, and made sure we have sufficient amount of fire extinguishers and are located appropriately. They get inspected yearly along with annual fire alarm testing.

Reality is there are a lot of aspects to consider and adapt/ keep up with. I am constantly learning something new

 

[Bfish]

ThunderChicken, I wanted to comment on this thread earlier today but haven't had any time. I am going to go into detail about the team in general but all of the legal stuff and things like that I'll put at the end. First and foremost if you guys are really concerned about it and can do it, just paying a local PD officer to be there in uniform is always ideal but may not be realistic for a small church I know. But there goes all of your lawyer and insurance issues. But here it goes...
I am a part of a large church security team. Some of what I'm going to say may not apply as well to a church of 90 people, but I'll give you some ideas. We have a "document" I can't remember if it's called at the moment. But essentially a manual that lays out in detail lots of different things to protect the church as well as the team members in a legal sense as well. This is key for what you are talking about. We do lots of training together several times a year, and a monthly meeting. For example we meet on one thursday evening each month, we have two guys doing some training next Sunday afternoon and as a group we have another active shooter training scheduled in our church building for early next month. On the team we have medical professionals as well as police officers, federal officers, military guys, "regular joes" etc.
The two that really matter are the medical professionals (paramedics for example) and the police officers. Everyone is physically fit and well versed in deescalating situations as well as restraining people if needed. We've even had several training iterations on how to deal with restraining people correctly and escalation of force, where the law stands etc. I'm not going to go into great detail but being physically capable is important for sure. Our correctional officers are obviously a head above here though.
The medical is very important because we've had more emergencies in that sense than any other. We have CPR training provided, AED, and other first aid. There is also advanced stuff on site to treat life threatening wounds and several guys carry tourniquets etc. Everyone posses a radio that is worn under you shirt/jacket and the only visible portion is your ear piece. This allows us to communicate between those who are in the sanctuary and others who may be in a parking lot or anywhere else in the building who we need assistance from or to contact and do so immediately. The biggest thing I've had to deal with is a little girl catching her hair on fire (too much hair spray and a candle didn't mix), and another person who broke their collar bone, but we've had people pass out, people break bones obviously, and many other crazy things. The radios came in to play in those situations and keep service from being disrupted unnecessarily and in my opinion are a crucial part for us.
We are a large church of over 2,000 people and have two services on a Sunday morning with 6+ security people working on a Sunday. There are a certain number of scheduled slots people are rotated through and others that a member voluntarily fills that usually consists of just sitting in on service and wearing your radio to respond if needed. This means that there are some who periodically check the parking lot, some that will walk through the children's areas, back stage, and other areas of concern. There are guys responsible for offering counting, others who's job is to sit in on service as well. Everyone is in radio communication if need be and can dial 911 as needed from the radio even. As to areas of concern, it's a good of time as any to talk doors. I know the church has to be inviting etc but don't leave unnecessary stuff unlocked. There are a whole lot of emergency exits you can get out of, but there are only 3 options for entering on a Sunday morning, keeping things looked and unnecessary access to a minim is important I think.
I mentioned medical already and said police officers are also very important. I would say this is because I as a person who is not a law enforcement officer cannot handcuff someone or deal with certain things in the way a police officer can. As a large church with children's services we have sadly had an upset person or two show custody disputes on site. Usually they are just looking to cause problems for the ex and at the very least embarrass them, but it's still (and really can turn into) a huge issue. When you leave your kid in sudsy school there is a short list of people who can pick that kid up. If you are not on it you are not getting that kid (they have a radio to contact security as well if one is not near by). We have had an incident where law enforcement had to be involved, we try and let the off duty guys get in there asap and then are alway quick to get call for an on duty officer as well and let them handle it.

So, I've said all of this to say this. All of that junk I mentioned beyond the active shooter training had nothing to do with guns. But every member does conceal a gun in addition to church keys, a flash light, some medical equipment (not all members I don't think though), wear a radio, and a few other odds and ins that are not always "required." The gun part is such a small part of it though is what I'm getting at. We do have training on a range, you have to qualify with your pistol etc. I also love the active shooter training that we do and I think it's beyond valuable. However, I think people fall into the trap of thinking it's about the guns. While everyone has a gun on them every day, and it is the most important thing if you need it, thankfully no one had needed one. So with that said, every other thing I talked about has actually been used or came in to play. It's more about offering and not letting people be near the counting room etc., people breaking in to cars in the parking lot, and being very mindful of the kids as they are coming and going as well as who is interacting with them after service. I think that a church security team is amazing, however plan for more than the active shooter.

To you specifically thunder chicken some of this doesn't apply but who knows who may eventually read it so I went into some detail, and I'll get to you legal and insurance stuff in a second. I feel like at a big church like I go can often be targeted in a lesser sense. There are a lot more cars for people to come take stuff out of (people also need to lock their doors), there is most likely going to be more money passing though with the offering, there are a lot of places to slip in and blend in etc. and in a general sense more people to take advantage of for anyone looking to do malice or harm. But at a church of 90 people you shouldn't have many issues, and having three or four really well trained guys may be perfect for your situation. Heck even if you get four level headed physically able and capable guys together once a quarter and look at issues, have medical things on standby, and rough plan of action in the event of something like an active shooter I feel like that can be huge at a small church, plus with 90 people you know who isn't normally there where at a large church you may not know Joe from Adam. I spoke about having a PD or deputy in uniform with his marked car as a solution and many take that route just for the legal reasons you spoke of. It can be hard to get through but having the church insurance cover somethings is huge, but sometimes things have to be worded carefully. We sat down as a group with our local PD's training officer and another and looked at how to deal with escalation of force and use of force etc. in a way that would protect both the church as well as the individual members at the same time. We did that after we had it looked at by the insurance company and a few other things. We changed the wording of things a bit for reasons stated and even had to change the name to "safety" rather than "security" but I think that was just so some federal guys could get on more than insurance but I'm not 100% sure. I hope this big old thing helped you as well as anyone else who comes along. I know I went probably more in depth on stuff you didn't ask about than the stuff you did, but you'll have to deal with your church leadership and getting things lined out with the insurance company and things. You've already got people carrying guns in the building though, I feel like it's foolish not to have some organization regardless of the lawyers or the formation of a "team" the response will be there most likely it's just how good it will be. Again, don't forget the other stuff, and don't count out just hiring a police officer to be there.