external safety hatred syndrome

[lovemachine]

This thread makes me want to buy a 1911.

 

[dom1104]

This thread makes me want to buy a 1911.

If you do, people who own a Glock will have strong opinions on how you should carry it

 

[iChokePeople]

 

[IndyGunner]

Thank you for your "helpful" opinions.
Again, maybe a bit more clearly...

I dont own a handgun with an on/off safety. So my input would be completely worthless and irrelevant. Just saying how my defensive tools are set up.

Sorry I cant help you

This thread makes me want to buy a 1911.

I cant wait to pick up a rock island tactical. Next purchase fo sho

 

[88E30M50]

Browning's model didn't have an external safety...that is fact.

But, Brownings model that did not include the safety was dismissed as not meeting the requirements. Wasn't the 1903 in 380? Would that infer that he really intended the 1911 to be in 380, but the pesky requiments foiled him there too? The military deemed the safety-less Browning design to unusable. In post #129, you include a quote that states that the proper method of carry is cocked and locked when action is imminent, but then highlight the sentence that says to carry unloaded when not near the enemy as proof that the 1911 was designed to be carried that way.

I don't buy the argument that the 1911 was not designed to be carried cocked and locked solely because nobody can find a quote that says 'Designed to be carried cocked and locked'. Lack of evidence supporting condition 1 is not evidence in and of itself. If the military manual quoted says to carry in condition 1, then is that not evidence that the same military that required a design artifact that can only be used in condition 1, then recommends it as the proper use of the weapon, did not, in fact, require the design to support condition 1?

 

[IndyGunner]

I don't buy the argument that the 1911 was not designed to be carried cocked and locked solely because nobody can find a quote that says 'Designed to be carried cocked and locked'.

I cant think of any mfg who recommends keeping your firearm loaded and ready to go. Too much legal liability.

 

[lovemachine]

If you do, people who own a Glock will have strong opinions on how you should carry it

I own 2 Glocks, and carry a Glock 19. So don't worry, I'll be constantly arguing with myself how I should carry it


Any recommendations which 1911 I should look into?

 

[88E30M50]

Maybe the point of all of this is to carry however you like, but practice until you have it down to reflex. I don't like guns without safeties, but for those that do, and that practice with them, they are not unsafe. I do like safeties and practice with them and lose no speed in the draw because of them.

Also, trying something that you are not familiar with does not give you the ability to pronounce the final verdict on whether or not it is correct. Viva le difference...

 

[IndyGunner]

^this

 

[dom1104]

I own 2 Glocks, and carry a Glock 19. So don't worry, I'll be constantly arguing with myself how I should carry it


Any recommendations which 1911 I should look into?

Since there are so many types, that is a pretty loaded question.

I would defer you over to an expert who I trust.

Mr. Yam is truly an expert in the field, but remember he is coming from the standpoint of fielding 1911s for a police or military unit.

The requirements for a "regular guy" are somewhat less, but its worth reading.

Articles

 

[rhino]

Those of you who have ascertained with your vast experience that using a thumb safety on a 1911-style pistol is somehow inherently slower than (insert alternative) should probably send a letter to the people below. They need to know how much slower they are because of that pesky thumb safety they disengage every time they draw their gun:

Rob Leatham
Todd Jarrett
JJ Racaza
KC Eusebio
Travis Tomasie
Max Michel
etc etc etc

If they only knew how they were handicapped by that incredibly slow thumb safety, they might not be able to win as many big matches where speed is at a premium.

 

[kingnereli]

I agree with what you have stated, but many of those military manuals indicate to carry in condition 3. Where is the documentation from any 1911 manufacturer that specifies it's intended method of carry?

For a bit of reference..I found a Basic Field Manual from 1940. Here is what it states...
"In campaign, when early use of the pistol is not foreseen, it should be carried with a fully loaded magazine in the socket, chamber empty, hammer down. When early use of the pistol is probable, It should be carried loaded and locked in the holster or hand. In campaign, extra magazines should be carried fully loaded."

How is that any kind of fact to indicate it was designed to be carried in condition 1?

Did you not read your quote past the highlighted portion? Cocked and locked for when the pistol may be needed. You answered your own question and validated my point. There were other circumstances where condition one was called for as well. I believe someone earlier mention mounted calvary. Empty chamber, hammer down was and still is military protocol for when you have a pistol on you but you aren't going to need it. Chamber loaded, hammer cocked, safety on was for when the pistol may need to be used for its intended purpose. (Like if the 7/11 I'm in gets robbed.) Condition 0 has never been considered a safe way to carry. No reputable trainers, experts, industry personel, etc. suggest it is acceptable.

Browning's model didn't have an external safety...that is fact.

Do you understand how much that doesn't matter? The 1911, as adopted by the military, was required to have certain features. Those features were included, Browning sold the patents to Colt and 1911s have had safeties ever sense. No one is telling you that a design without a thumb safety was intended to be carried cocked and locked. We are telling you that the pistol that this country's military used for decades, that has a solid presence in civilian carry and competition was intended to be carried cocked and locked.

Oh, and have I mentioned how insane it is to let such a small sliver of metal be the only thing keeping a bullet out of your leg while you jostle the gun about with daily activity?

 

[snowman46919]

Those of you who have ascertained with your vast experience that using a thumb safety on a 1911-style pistol is somehow inherently slower than (insert alternative) should probably send a letter to the people below. They need to know how much slower they are because of that pesky thumb safety they disengage every time they draw their gun:

Rob Leatham
Todd Jarrett
JJ Racaza
KC Eusebio
Travis Tomasie
Max Michel
etc etc etc

If they only knew how they were handicapped by that incredibly slow thumb safety, they might not be able to win as many big matches where speed is at a premium.

Isn't that a bit skewed being that they use the RazorCat versus a standard 1911? I am truly wondering not trolling.

 

[ATF Consumer]

But, Brownings model that did not include the safety was dismissed as not meeting the requirements. Wasn't the 1903 in 380? Would that infer that he really intended the 1911 to be in 380, but the pesky requiments foiled him there too? The military deemed the safety-less Browning design to unusable. In post #129, you include a quote that states that the proper method of carry is cocked and locked when action is imminent, but then highlight the sentence that says to carry unloaded when not near the enemy as proof that the 1911 was designed to be carried that way.

Neither are proof of the design, only directed by the military to be carried that way.

I don't buy the argument that the 1911 was not designed to be carried cocked and locked solely because nobody can find a quote that says 'Designed to be carried cocked and locked'. Lack of evidence supporting condition 1 is not evidence in and of itself. If the military manual quoted says to carry in condition 1, then is that not evidence that the same military that required a design artifact that can only be used in condition 1, then recommends it as the proper use of the weapon, did not, in fact, require the design to support condition 1?

The standard carry of a military issued 1911 is condition 3. Condition 1 is to only be carried when action is imminent.
With the options on the 1911, it can be carried in various ways...just not designed for a particular one.

Lack of evidence certainly doesn't make it valid to state that it was designed to be carried in any condition.

Many 1911s do not come from the manufacturer with a holster. Does that mean they are designed to be carried in the hand and not in a holster?

 

[bwframe]

...so when you brought up carrying unsafed that would be the same as carrying without a safety...

Incorrect.

I dont own a handgun with an on/off safety. So my input would be completely worthless and irrelevant.

Correct.

Young gentlemen, let me be totally clear here. Your opinion is sincerely much appreciated. Really.
Even the parts where you guys think you can tell me what to do.
However, when you choose to quote me in your post, you should expect to be held accountable and on point with your words.

I will rephrase the original question I asked:
There are posts in this thread suggesting that it is good practice and safe to carry a handgun with the external safety switch turned to the off position. Is this sound advice? Can this be substantiated by someone other than those who carry guns without external safeties?

 

[snowman46919]

Incorrect.


Correct.

Young gentlemen, let me be totally clear here. Your opinion is sincerely much appreciated. Really.
Even the parts where you guys think you can tell me what to do.
However, when you choose to quote me in your post, you should expect to be held accountable and on point with your words.

I will rephrase the original question I asked:
There are posts in this thread suggesting that it is good practice and safe to carry a handgun with the external safety switch turned to the off position. Is this sound advice? Can this be substantiated by someone other than those who carry guns without external safeties?

I don't believe I told you what to do, but if I did I apologize. That being said I don't quite understand how carrying without using the safety is not the same as carrying with a gun that has no safety. Both are a condition of carrying in the status of unsafed (totally different than the irresponsible carrying unsafely) so I do not understand how they would not be the same situation other than you have the possibility of putting one on safe. If you execute on that possibility you are going outside the parameters of the situation you put forth and it becomes futile to discuss further. This of course is my opinion and be my guest to help me further understand this branch of discussion.

 

[rhino]

Isn't that a bit skewed being that they use the RazorCat versus a standard 1911? I am truly wondering not trolling.

Only two that I listed use guns built by Johnnie Lim and only one (JJ) uses the model you mentioned.

I don't do "trolling." I was trying illustrate the absurdity of the claim that using the thumb safety on a 1911-style pistol results in some noticeable delay. Virtually all of the top USPSA and IPSC shooters in the world use some variant of the 1911 with a completely functional thumb safety because it is the most efficient tool for shooting with the best possible combination of accuracy and speed. Such delays only happen if the user doesn't know how to draw and present the weapon in any number "correct" ways.

Furthermore, even if they did all use a "RazorCat," it still has a thumb safety that functions exactly the same way as any government issue 1911 or 1911A1. The "pedal" may be bigger, but you still have to push it downward to make the bang switch work later.

Furthermore, some may not realize that one's thinb should be pressing downward on the thumb safety all the time the thumb safety is "off" for a variety of reason, which includes while you're actually shooting.

 

[snowman46919]

Only two that I listed use guns built by Johnnie Lim and only one (JJ) uses the model you mentioned.

I don't do "trolling." I was trying illustrate the absurdity of the claim that using the thumb safety on a 1911-style pistol results in some noticeable delay. Virtually all of the top USPSA and IPSC shooters in the world use some variant of the 1911 with a completely functional thumb safety because it is the most efficient tool for shooting with the best possible combination of accuracy and speed. Such delays only happen if the user doesn't know how to draw and present the weapon in any number "correct" ways.

Furthermore, even if they did all use a "RazorCat," it still has a thumb safety that functions exactly the same way as any government issue 1911 or 1911A1. The "pedal" may be bigger, but you still have to push it downward to make the bang switch work later.

Furthermore, some may not realize that one's thinb should be pressing downward on the thumb safety all the time the thumb safety is "off" for a variety of reason, which includes while you're actually shooting.

Thanks for that I mentioned the razor specifically because that is what JJ uses and figured that would be the most recognizable to people that don't follow competitive shooting. I also have not done my first 1911 customizing so I wasn't sure if there is a way to shorten the throw or anyway to speed up the utilizing of the safety, although the bigger paddle may help speed some.

 

[LAZY DOG]

This one doesn't make a whole lot of sense because technically all you can see is the button or the grip, you can't actually see it disconnecting or engaging. Anything mechanical can and will fail, less amount of moving parts means less that can break. That is why the 1911 is such a popular style that many have based their designs after. IMO fewest amount of parts that gets the job done is the best design.

ya that i s what i said 1911 is a good design. i ment thumb saftey not grip saftey you can see if the thumb satey is on.

 

[dom1104]

Oh my gosh, this is too good.

Now Rhino is involved, I cant wait for the noobs to start telling him how to shoot!

Where is that popcorn smiley! This is too good.

Too good.

I think we should run one of them thru a USPSA course vs Rhino or Bwframe and see how much that thumb safety slows them down.