The unofficial Churches should not be tax exempt thread.

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I pay income tax, does that mean I don't freely exercise any of my rights?
Taxing a church property isn't in any way prohibiting a religion from existing.
In the context most relevant to us and reading the new testament you don't even get the impression Jesus had in mind the kind of 'church' as we now think of it.

Yes. Yes, when you pay taxes, you are giving up some portion of your property, property you’d otherwise be free to enjoy as you please, in order make that payment to the government. Taxation is theft. It (especially income/payroll taxes) can only be collected via forced collection through the implied threat of loss of liberty. They are especially repugnant to exercising your right to pursue happiness...you cannot avoid them.

Playing games about who pays how much and who gets special exemptions and privileges is really just arguing over where the deck chairs go on the Titantic.

 

[Jludo]

So, if you get your wish of repealing religious entities as non-profits, then how would you react to doing away with the tax exempt status of Gun Rights organizations like GOA, SAF, etc.? The way I see it is if one falls, all will eventually fall. And just because something doesn't operate the way you like shouldn't be a reason to tax it to extract a penalty, where your energy should actually be directed to is the elimination of the 100+ year theft that has been going on.

Why do you think the other would neccesarily fall?

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

The correct answer is yes and no. And bacon. The money that goes into community service should be tax exempt. The money collected for upkeep of the church/clubhouse should be tax exempt. Only for-profit money should be taxed. And of course any .org that uses its resources for political messages should forfeit their tax exemptions.

Many churches would be completely tax exempt. The plastic Baptist church in Mississippi I listened to on the radio one Sunday morning in early-mid 2000s, which said that not voting Republican is a sin, should lose its tax exemption. They’re probably still at it.

As I stated earlier, I know of a few that have given up their exemption because they didn’t want to be held hostage to this arbitrary part of the law. There’s also a strain of thought out there that states, the churches ought to test the feds on this because (as far as I know based on articles I’ve read) they’ve never actually made a point to enforce this law. They theorize if tested, the courts might just throw it out. Who says a church cannot push a political agenda? The Constitution certainly doesn’t.

 

[Ingomike]

I pay income tax, does that mean I don't freely exercise any of my rights?
Taxing a church property isn't in any way prohibiting a religion from existing.
In the context most relevant to us and reading the new testament you don't even get the impression Jesus had in mind the kind of 'church' as we now think of it.

Unless you have a genuine point this is my last reply to you.

The constitution clearly gives government the ability to tax the people. It also clearly says that government cannot do anything to prohibit the FREE exercise thereof. If there is any tax or restrictions it would no longer be completely free...

 

[Jludo]

Yes. Yes, when you pay taxes, you are giving up some portion of your property, property you’d otherwise be free to enjoy as you please, in order make that payment to the government. Taxation is theft. It (especially income/payroll taxes) can only be collected via forced collection through the implied threat of loss of liberty. They are especially repugnant to exercising your right to pursue happiness...you cannot avoid them.

Playing games about who pays how much and who gets special exemptions and privileges is really just arguing over where the deck chairs go on the Titantic.

Alright poor example for the anarcho capitalists among us. I too wish the government made its whole nut through tariffs like the good old days. The government is still sucking some ammount of value out of me in order to sustain itself.

 

[churchmouse]

 

[churchmouse]

Alright poor example for the anarcho capitalists among us. I too wish the government made its whole nut through tariffs like the good old days. The government is still sucking some ammount of value out of me in order to sustain itself.

Precisely.
Gov. as become a huge malignant tumor sucking the very life out of this country.

 

[Ingomike]

As I stated earlier, I know of a few that have given up their exemption because they didn’t want to be held hostage to this arbitrary part of the law. There’s also a strain of thought out there that states, the churches ought to test the feds on this because (as far as I know based on articles I’ve read) they’ve never actually made a point to enforce this law. They theorize if tested, the courts might just throw it out. Who says a church cannot push a political agenda? The Constitution certainly doesn’t.

Churches can push a political agenda, just not a campaign for a candidate or candidates for office, that by definition becomes a campaign for office. Although it would be interesting to see this SC decide it...

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Precisely.
Gov. as become a huge malignant tumor sucking the very life out of this country.

Yes. It has. All you have to do is peruse almost any thread on social media having to do with schools (for example) and you will see posts by well meaning folks asking for more money to fund schools, provide more free lunches for the hungry kids, etc. It has become a malignant tumor but only because we gave it the power to become so.

 

[Jludo]

Unless you have a genuine point this is my last reply to you.

The constitution clearly gives government the ability to tax the people. It also clearly says that government cannot do anything to prohibit the FREE exercise thereof. If there is any tax or restrictions it would no longer be completely free...

Right if we taxed you everytime you went and prayed at your neighbors house I'd agree you're being restricted. If the catholic church says they need a special built, tax free cathedral on prime real estate in town, to worship freely, I'd disagree. Catholics can practice religion without cathedrals. If we grant religious freedoms to things like buildings I'm not sure what argument we get to make against things like scientology boats .

 

[2A_Tom]

Serious question...

Is any other 501,c,3 non profit not allowed to endorse political candidates?

Lyndon B. Johnson wrote and pushed the bill to not allow Churches to endorse political candidates, because he was personally despised by the Churches in Texas.

According to the 1st amendment this gag order suppresses the free speech of Churches and limits their free exercise.

ETA: It seems our anarcho capitalist formerly known as a Libertarian is showing heavily statist leanings, being pro tax on me to support refugees and taxing churches (which has nothing to do with his proclaimed unbelief).

 

[Ingomike]

Right if we taxed you everytime you went and prayed at your neighbors house I'd agree you're being restricted. If the catholic church says they need a special built, tax free cathedral on prime real estate in town, to worship freely, I'd disagree. Catholics can practice religion without cathedrals. If we grant religious freedoms to things like buildings I'm not sure what argument we get to make against things like scientology boats .

The Catholic cathedral you describe, they bought the land, they built the cathedral, but if at some point they do not have the funds for property taxes government can take it away and sell it and that would not prohibit the free exercise thereof?


The Second Amendment says the right shall not be infringed, what right? The right to keep and bear. It does not say "free".

Simply, if it is taxed is it "free"?

 

[CampingJosh]

Serious question...

Is any other 501,c,3 non profit not allowed to endorse political candidates?

501(c)(3) non-profit organizations other than churches are also restricted from political endorsements.

 

[Jludo]

The Catholic cathedral you describe, they bought the land, they built the cathedral, but if at some point they do not have the funds for property taxes government can take it away and sell it and that would not prohibit the free exercise thereof?

The free excercise thereof owning a cathedral? No. Would they still have the freedom to excercise Catholicism? Yes.
Also im not going to argue on the side of Gov't owning all land and us just renting it from them but that's a different debate applicable to all who pay property tax, not specifically to religions.

 

[Flash-hider]

Why do you think the other would neccesarily fall?

I see it as the preverbial, nose of the camel under the tent. It will be used as a political weapon to silence and eliminate political foes.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Right if we taxed you everytime you went and prayed at your neighbors house I'd agree you're being restricted. If the catholic church says they need a special built, tax free cathedral on prime real estate in town, to worship freely, I'd disagree. Catholics can practice religion without cathedrals. If we grant religious freedoms to things like buildings I'm not sure what argument we get to make against things like scientology boats .

I certainly don’t. It’s not up to me to get to decide how an organization uses their property as long as it doesn’t affect me. Again, arguing over who should pay what and who gets special privileges is pointing to a larger problem. As long as “they” can keep us arguing over whether the Catholics should pay taxes on their property or whether Scientology is a real religion or not plays right into the statist’s hands. Que the “dance my little puppets! Dance!” Gif.

 

[Jludo]

I certainly don’t. It’s not up to me to get to decide how an organization uses their property as long as it doesn’t affect me. Again, arguing over who should pay what and who gets special privileges is pointing to a larger problem. As long as “they” can keep us arguing over whether the Catholics should pay taxes on their property or whether Scientology is a real religion or not plays right into the statist’s hands. Que the “dance my little puppets! Dance!” Gif.

I agree with your greater point about taxation and size/govt spending.
It reminds me of the carrier tax break debate. I fall on the side of everyone should share the miserable tax burden that is out bloated govt. We shouldn't carve out tax exemptions for certain groups.

 

[Ingomike]

I certainly don’t. It’s not up to me to get to decide how an organization uses their property as long as it doesn’t affect me. Again, arguing over who should pay what and who gets special privileges is pointing to a larger problem. As long as “they” can keep us arguing over whether the Catholics should pay taxes on their property or whether Scientology is a real religion or not plays right into the statist’s hands. Que the “dance my little puppets! Dance!” Gif.

I agree with your greater point about taxation and size/govt spending.
It reminds me of the carrier tax break debate. I fall on the side of everyone should share the miserable tax burden that is out bloated govt. We shouldn't carve out tax exemptions for certain groups.

Then you guys need to start a Constitutional Convention to alter the First Amendment. A cathedral is also part of their right of assembly, also explicitly mentioned in the Constitution.

Sorry, but you guys are just flat out wrong on taxing churches. And the best proof that you are wrong on this is, with all the leftist crazy s**t passed in blue states, none have even attempted this...

 

[hoosierdoc]

No one should be tax exempt.

no one should be taxed

 

[chezuki]

Taxation is theft.

/thread