The unofficial Churches should not be tax exempt thread.

[HoughMade]

Taxation is theft.

/thread

I feel like I not-so-subtly hinted at this many pages ago.

Anyhoo- principles be damned when you think someone is getting something you aren't.

 

[BugI02]

Ive not seen too many churches I would consider non-profit. I recently was in Louisville for my wife’s family Christmas, and in talking with her uncle about their MEGA-Church(several campuses, huge new buildings, 10K average attendance each service) and he was talking about their approximately $30M budget!! No way no how are you operating non profit with $30,000,000. Not SHOWING a profit is NOT the same as NON- profit.

Take a look at your local 'non-profit' hospitals and compare the administrator's salaries to those at for profit corporations (or to yours)

We could eliminate the tax deduction to an individual for giving to a particular organization so the contribution is post-tax dollars, but I think we can guess the unintended consequence of that

 

[CampingJosh]

We could eliminate the tax deduction to an individual for giving to a particular organization so the contribution is post-tax dollars, but I think we can guess the unintended consequence of that

The giant bump in the standard deduction has somewhat done that. I still think it's a good thing, but it has a consequence that has been felt by non-profits that rely on small donations.

 

[BugI02]

The problem is that nearly none of the money that flows into a church is transactional. It's donations. Businesses pay taxes on their profits, not on gross revenue. How do you determine what is profit when people give?

It's legal for people to voluntarily pool their money without then paying taxes on the pool. So any income tax on a church would be discriminatory against religious people.

Churches just get the same tax exemptions that other civic organizations get. The local conservation club doesn't have to pay property tax. The Boys & Girls Club doesn't have to pay sales tax on their supplies.

Again, taxing churches would be a clear violation of the First Amendment unless every civic group and charity was also taxed. And doing that would be a very bad idea.

16th Amendment


The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

Ratified in 1913, I believe. No loopholes in the original version

 

[Ingomike]

Ratified in 1913, I believe. No loopholes in the original version

This discussion (your comments and the quoted ones as well.)applies only to non-profits, not churches which have specific Constitutional protections...

P.S. My comment applies only to taxing the church, whether on not donations are the donors before or after tax dollars is another question.

 

[HoughMade]

My law firm, a partnership, my last law firm, a corporation, and nearly every small business does not pay income taxes unless mistakes are made.

 

[BugI02]

Right if we taxed you everytime you went and prayed at your neighbors house I'd agree you're being restricted. If the catholic church says they need a special built, tax free cathedral on prime real estate in town, to worship freely, I'd disagree. Catholics can practice religion without cathedrals. If we grant religious freedoms to things like buildings I'm not sure what argument we get to make against things like scientology boats .

Ever driven into Toledo, OH from the south on 75? Seen the minarets? It is not just the Catholic church that creates grand places of worship. Perhaps you could point me toward your equally biting critiques of the excesses of other religions besides Christianity, hmm?

 

[Ingomike]

My law firm, a partnership, my last law firm, a corporation, and nearly every small business does not pay income taxes unless mistakes are made.

I could really drive these tax the church guys wild, I do not believe corporate taxes should exist. The profits of the corporation should be distributed to the shareholders who pay the tax. If the corporation pays a tax, then distributes the profits after that, the shareholders then pay a tax and the government has successfully taxed the same money twice...

 

[2A_Tom]

Then you guys need to start a Constitutional Convention to alter the First Amendment. A cathedral is also part of their right of assembly, also explicitly mentioned in the Constitution.

Sorry, but you guys are just flat out wrong on taxing churches. And the best proof that you are wrong on this is, with all the leftist crazy s**t passed in blue states, none have even attempted this...

Indiana has attempted to pass a Church parking lot tax.

 

[BugI02]

This discussion (your comments and the quoted ones as well.)applies only to non-profits, not churches which have specific Constitutional protections...

P.S. My comment applies only to taxing the church, whether on not donations are the donors before or after tax dollars is another question.

The way I read it, religion has an explicit countenance in the language of the constitution, not any particular church

IANAL, so I don't know if the tension between the 1st and the 16th amendments has ever been adjudicated. Might be interesting

 

[BugI02]

I could really drive these tax the church guys wild, I do not believe corporate taxes should exist. The profits of the corporation should be distributed to the shareholders who pay the tax. If the corporation pays a tax, then distributes the profits after that, the shareholders then pay a tax and the government has successfully taxed the same money twice...

Same problem as with the gospel of prosperity. Should the corporate limos and private jets, the condos in Santa Barbara and the Upper West side be considered proper and allowed expenditures before the profits are distributed?

I no more wish to fund a board member's desire to be treated no different than The Royal Family than I do a pastor's

 

[HoughMade]

I would rather that some some abuse the system and we keep government out than inject government into every facet just catch some abusers.

 

[BugI02]

I would rather that some some abuse the system and we keep government out than inject government into every facet just catch some abusers.

I agree 100%, I was speaking against the idea of changing corporate tax accounting. I envision something like the way Hollywood studios and music companies do accounting - where an album or movie grosses hundreds of millions, but after 'expenses' profits are so low that the artist makes a pittance

Tax accountants/attorneys might go for it, though

 

[JettaKnight]

Ive not seen too many churches I would consider non-profit. I recently was in Louisville for my wife’s family Christmas, and in talking with her uncle about their MEGA-Church(several campuses, huge new buildings, 10K average attendance each service) and he was talking about their approximately $30M budget!! No way no how are you operating non profit with $30,000,000. Not SHOWING a profit is NOT the same as NON- profit.

Fyi, the biggest, flashiest hospital in Fort Wayne ins non-profit... and remind me what the NRA's budget is? Have you seen that gleaming emerald building in VA?

Size is not a good determinate of status.

 

[JettaKnight]

I am disappointed that bacon is not doing better.

The point I made in the other thread was, Churches should never take government money.

Why? Because if they take government money they are or will be limited by government regulations.

Even if you take take money, (or get tax exempt status), you're still bound by govt regulation.

BTW the gag on politics in Churches only applies to white churches. Yes that sounds prejudiced, but it is fact.

As far as the notion that tax exempt status is muzzling pastors in the pulpit - I don't see it. Robert Jefferess, Michael Pfleger, et al. prove this to be false. Besides, I don't want to go to any church that's telling me who to vote for.

EDIT: Note, those are both white church leaders (one right, one left). You can add Franklin Graham, Jerry Falwell, Jr., Paula White, and more to that list of overtly political white church leaders.







Now, should things change dramatically and there's actually limitations* on speaking the truth (i.e. what's right and wrong), then my tone might change.




The power to tax is the power to destroy.





* And I don't mean just sensational stories about it.

 

[JettaKnight]

Same problem as with the gospel of prosperity. Should the corporate limos and private jets, the condos in Santa Barbara and the Upper West side be considered proper and allowed expenditures before the profits are distributed?

I no more wish to fund a board member's desire to be treated no different than The Royal Family than I do a pastor's

Sen. Grassley tried to tackle that problem, but DC wasn't keen on dealing with it.


FYI, Charity Navigator really helps when it comes to sorting out the good from the bad.

 

[JettaKnight]

Yes. All payroll employees at a church pay income taxes.

There's a few weird 1040 things if you're a pastor or church employee, but I think that mostly has to do with medical expenses or something. I don't recall doing any 1040's that required checking any boxes... and after six years, I've probably done a 1040 for a church employee...

 

[JettaKnight]

You are free to give those groceries to a familiy in need yourself and cut out any institutional open hand.

Edit: And no...monies and goods collected for charitble purposes could be tax-exempt instead of rebatable in my ficticous and ideoligical example.

But, I need to launder those donations so I can get a tax deduction!

 

[Dead Duck]

Just so the Anti-Christ crowd knows....
The "Separation Between Church and State" that people love to throw around isn't what you think it means. It was NOT to keep religion out of state buildings, schools, whatevers.... It was to keep the government via "State" out of the church.
I'm not sure when this all got turned around but I am pretty sure on who's been pushing it. Although this isn't up for interpretation, many have and have swung it all different directions. Just like they do with the Second Amendment.

You may not believe it, like it or agree with it but there it is.




Prove me wrong, list the cases and run away in 3.... 2.... 1....

 

[BugI02]

Sen. Grassley tried to tackle that problem, but DC wasn't keen on dealing with it.


FYI, Charity Navigator really helps when it comes to sorting out the good from the bad.

Are you referring to one of these

View attachment 82953

bought with church funds?

I really do agree totally with Hough. I do not want the government empowered to say which church expenditures pass muster. Not a council of other churches, either. Imperfect system is superior to the alternative imperfect system

My giving outside of my church is also very local and I have volunteered with most of them, so charity navigator is of limited usefulness