THEFT? WTH.

[nonobaddog]

And now new trucks are just stupid expensive because the market is driven entirely by credit and long payment periods. It will crash, and when it does I’ll buy a truck.

Boy, I hope you are right! Both new trucks and young used trucks are very expensive right now and I'll be needing a truck in a year or two.

 

[CHCRandy]

This is not correct.
Sales tax in Indiana is paid on only the amount you pay. Rebates and MSRP have nothing to do with sales tax. When you trade in a vehicle you only pay sales tax on the difference after trade is subtracted from the selling price without the trade.

Sorry, but you are incorrect on the sales tax but possibly correct on trade in. You buy a new car with a $27,000 MSRP and you get $8,000 in rebates, and only pay $19,000 cash....you most definitely pay sales tax on $27,000. That I know for a fact, 100% positive. I checked with several sources when I was charged that way, and confirmed that is how it is. I didn't trade anything in though. Don't seem right, but it is.

 

[CHCRandy]

There are rare cases where buying new is the right decision. Trucking fleets—where cost of operating is the arbiter of survival— buy new trucks instead of used. Why? Because a “used” class 8 truck is out of warranty, has half a million miles, and often has worse mpg.

But the consumer vehicle market often isn’t like that. There are plenty of used vehicles out there that half a lot of life left in them.

Our 2005 van we bought in spring of ‘06 as a private party used vehicle with 20k on it already. Saved $9k vs buying brand new 06. Wife drives daily.

I bought my diesel truck new in ‘02. Sold it used for an absurdly high price I couldn’t turn down. But were it not for diesel pickup market getting stupid from 2005-2015, I’d have taken a bath. The truck I sold for $20k would be worth maybe $5k with a gas engine.

And now new trucks are just stupid expensive because the market is driven entirely by credit and long payment periods. It will crash, and when it does I’ll buy a truck.

Funny you say that...my buddy who was a salesman at Andy Mohr, up until recently, told me something that shocked me...we were talking about truck prices and payments on a $60-70K+ truck. He told me almost all the trucks over $50-60K he sold was cash deals, no financing. He said he would sell 10-15 a month and maybe 2 or 3 needed financing. I found that interesting...and even more interesting was that many of the F-150's that were less than $50K would be financed or leased.

How do you explain that? I can't really figure it out other than maybe a person who can drop $70,000 on a truck isnt really hurting for money where a family man who just wants a truck...may have more expenses and not liquid resources to pay for a truck, half what a home costs?

I can't confirm these numbers, just what someone I know and trust said...and he really has no reason to fib to me. I have to buy a new truck soon and I really dread it....think I may get a diesel and even used with less than 50K miles...they are outrageous. As you said, the only good thing is they seem to hold value. What was your 02? The 02 F250's with the 7.3 were crazy expensive for a while, everyone wanted them engines.

 

[firecadet613]

Funny you say that...my buddy who was a salesman at Andy Mohr, up until recently, told me something that shocked me...we were talking about truck prices and payments on a $60-70K+ truck. He told me almost all the trucks over $50-60K he sold was cash deals, no financing. He said he would sell 10-15 a month and maybe 2 or 3 needed financing. I found that interesting...and even more interesting was that many of the F-150's that were less than $50K would be financed or leased.

How do you explain that? I can't really figure it out other than maybe a person who can drop $70,000 on a truck isnt really hurting for money where a family man who just wants a truck...may have more expenses and not liquid resources to pay for a truck, half what a home costs?

I can't confirm these numbers, just what someone I know and trust said...and he really has no reason to fib to me. I have to buy a new truck soon and I really dread it....think I may get a diesel and even used with less than 50K miles...they are outrageous. As you said, the only good thing is they seem to hold value. What was your 02? The 02 F250's with the 7.3 were crazy expensive for a while, everyone wanted them engines.

To tie this to Andy Mohr, I bought my 2014 F150 from them. When I ordered a 2016, what they offered on trade was laughable.

With all the rebates on new, it makes no sense to buy a slightly used 1500. I did this twice, with a 2014 and 2016 F150. Bought for at least 10k off MSRP, traded them both in at 60k miles and two years for 10k less than I paid.

When I bought the 2014, it was only 2k more than a used 2013. No brainers, IMO. I've since switched to Ram and putting a lot less miles on the truck...so I'll probably keep this one longer than the 2 year trend...

 

[nonobaddog]

I had a Honda Accord that was simply a great car. I was aiming to get 250K on it but in October at 249,6xx a suicidal deer wiped it out. That thing was still running just like new. I'll replace it this spring and will look at used cars first - something like a 2 year old Accord will at the top of my list to look for.

 

[IndyBeerman]

Andy Mohr dealerships are a joke, I'll never buy from them.

Back in 2008 I was looking at buying a new Trailblazer via a legacy purchase, asked multiple times of what the final cost was with the GM employee discount, was repeatedly told that they couldn't give me a price until they knew what I was trading in. Told them multiple times that the purchase price was locked in because I was ordering it, trade in didn't matter and that was a separate transaction. After wasting my time for 1 hour, I walked out. Later on I traded in my 98 short-bed extended cab 3 door to Rorhman Isuzu in Greenwood for a 08 Ascender (rebadged GMC Envoy) for 3 grand under stick with a 9000.00 rebate added on top of that, they also gave me a 15,000 trade in on my truck. In and out the door in 45 minutes, had to come back in the next morning at opening to pick it up because it still needed prepped. I can be a little bit of a D***, I sold Chevy's in the mid 80's before getting onto the beer business for 32 years.

My last vehicle experience was buying a 2012 Traverse LT in Lafayette at a used dealer there, it resulted in them getting a serious fine from the IAGO for Title manipulation, they was not having people sign titles on trade in's and was having them sign a P.O.A., then they was signing the title. This all came to a head because thr P.O.A was out of date and when I took the title in the BMV null and voided it, thay had to track down the last owner and have them sign a new title, took over 4 months to get it all worked out, sucked having to run around with a paper plate for all that time.

I now consider almost anyone associated in auto sales and management as official scum of the earth because almost all of them are not trustworthy.

 

[Bosshoss]

Sorry, but you are incorrect on the sales tax but possibly correct on trade in. You buy a new car with a $27,000 MSRP and you get $8,000 in rebates, and only pay $19,000 cash....you most definitely pay sales tax on $27,000. That I know for a fact, 100% positive. I checked with several sources when I was charged that way, and confirmed that is how it is. I didn't trade anything in though. Don't seem right, but it is.

You are correct on the rebates. MSRP has nothing to do with your sales tax. $40 k car and you offer $30 k and they accept you pay taxs on $30 k not the $40 k MSRP.

 

[bobzilla]

Yes cars have lower resale than trucks. Korean cars less but are as good or better than most of the Japanese competition.

first question is why are you buying a new truck ever 2-3 years? If you’re a business that I’d putting 300k miles and destroying them in 5?years I get it. Personal use? That thing should last you 20’years and 350k miles. Vehicles are a seriously terrible investment. The less you throw away the better off you are (and the more guns ammo and race cars you can buy).

the last new vehicle we purchased was our 06 Sierra crew cab. It was the only way we could get the engine, rear end and package we wanted (4.8, 2wd, 3.23rear) and I still worked for the dealerships then and got $4k off sticker. We traded in her Paidnoff Suzuki Grand Vitara for $3k and walked out with 0% financing for 60 months. We will have this truck until it rusts in two. No it’s not the newest or shiniest but it does everything we ask and has been paid off for so long the idea of a car payment is a long distant memory.

wife isn’t getting a new car until she retires. We put 44k mikes in her car in 15 months. No point in paying good money for something that is but going to get beat daily. That’s why we bought it 2 years ago now with 30k mikes with a salvage title for $7k. Clear title and no scratches the car was $11k. Sold new 3years prior for $24k. She gets an almost new car that looks decent for less tha. A third of new price that shell run 3 or 4 years, put 150k mikes in it and we will sell it for a couple grand and do it all over again.

new cars are a scam. New trucks are just ludicrous. I spend $50k it ain’t going to be for a truck that will be worth half thy in 5 years.

 

[firecadet613]

I agree, horrible investments.... almost as bad as a boat, but you have to buy it right. Company car allowance on both the '14 and '16. 30,000+ miles a year and I wasn't upside down at the end of year 1 or year 2.

MSRP of just over 50k, paid 37 on the '14 and 38' on the '16. '14 was on the lot, '16 was ordered. Decided on a '19 Ram (ordered) and did even better on that purchase, given it had only been out a few months.

I've switched to a company car and the truck is no longer beat to death daily. I've had it 18 months and just over 19k miles. The plan is to keep this one a while, very happy with it.

 

[Hohn]

Funny you say that...my buddy who was a salesman at Andy Mohr, up until recently, told me something that shocked me...we were talking about truck prices and payments on a $60-70K+ truck. He told me almost all the trucks over $50-60K he sold was cash deals, no financing. He said he would sell 10-15 a month and maybe 2 or 3 needed financing. I found that interesting...and even more interesting was that many of the F-150's that were less than $50K would be financed or leased.

How do you explain that? I can't really figure it out other than maybe a person who can drop $70,000 on a truck isnt really hurting for money where a family man who just wants a truck...may have more expenses and not liquid resources to pay for a truck, half what a home costs?

I can't confirm these numbers, just what someone I know and trust said...and he really has no reason to fib to me. I have to buy a new truck soon and I really dread it....think I may get a diesel and even used with less than 50K miles...they are outrageous. As you said, the only good thing is they seem to hold value. What was your 02? The 02 F250's with the 7.3 were crazy expensive for a while, everyone wanted them engines.

Not to invalidate your friend's experience (i.e. anecdotal evidence), but a local market and a national market can vary considerably from each other.

My bro is a sales manager at a dealership out of state. We talk about the state of the market quite frequently.

Car Debt is up massively since 2009.

Nearly a third of new car loans are 7 to 8 years.

Total amount of car debt outstanding is at an all time record high.

MORE DATA HERE>


Reasonable people can disagree, but this MBA thinks that we are nearing (or at) the peak of an automotive bubble fueled by credit and cheap interest rates. Automakers have painted themselves in a corner. They raised prices a bunch and then became dependent on long financing terms to sell the vehicles. Which of course means that the buyers are farther upside down for longer. Which means that in order to buy a newer car a few years later, they most go FURTHER upside down while "upgrading" to a faster-depreciating newer vehicle.

My sister's case is not atypical according to my brother. She owes something like 10k on her van more than it's worth, and it's like a 2015. It had a cam failure and she was stuck because she's insanely upside down. How? Simple, she traded in a slightly upside down vehicle on a new one, and proceeded to dig the hole deeper and faster.

Having raised prices too far to sustain sales, the car makers must now lose money on the actual selling price of the car so that they can make money only on the financing. The automakers today are making money mostly off their financing, not their cars. It's become a volume game. They are trying to Wal Mart the industry-- huge volume withe razor thin margins.

Which is why the small dealerships are being squeezed out. They can't move hundreds of units a month, and they actually need to make money on the sales of the cars, they can't lose $50 a car just to feed the Corporate desire to manufacture more car loans.


Be prepared for a MAJOR automotive market bailout debate when the economy turns (as it inevitably will) probably late next year. It might not be in free fall by election time, but I'd be surprised if we aren't having discussions in 2021-2022 eerily reminiscent of the 2008-2009 timeframe.

 

[jedi]

So if the auto market gets a bail out again will that means car prices will drop?

I have an 06 van that is dieing of rust.
Engine still is good but the winters have killed it.
I figure I got less then 24 months before the rust finished it off.
Been putting off getting another vechile.

 

[soupergenius]

So I purchased a used car for a friend from Andy Mohr BUICK-GMC up on Ind. 37 and 131st. St. In Fishers.
The price on the windshield was $2500.00, BUT it was BLACK FRIDAY sale day and they advertised a today only price of $1890.00.
So after throughly looking over and driving the car, I agreed to purchase it.
They said with title, registration and fees, the out the door total was $2585.00. So I laid down the cash, (they wouldn't take check or card or anything else). So I'm looking over the paperwork and I notice that there is a charge for "THEFT, $250.00". So I questioned them about it and have never received an explanation as to what the THEFT charge was for, but it looks like they did end up getting their original price of $2500.00.
Is there any other posible explanation or is it just what it says-------THEFT of $250.00?

I pay the negotiated price plus tax. No fees. No nothing. I don't pay fees. I arrange my own financing. If they don't agree I walk. Last time I bought a Van I walked 4 times over 2 days before I finally bought it.

 

[1775usmarine]

So I purchased a used car for a friend from Andy Mohr BUICK-GMC up on Ind. 37 and 131st. St. In Fishers.
The price on the windshield was $2500.00, BUT it was BLACK FRIDAY sale day and they advertised a today only price of $1890.00.
So after throughly looking over and driving the car, I agreed to purchase it.
They said with title, registration and fees, the out the door total was $2585.00. So I laid down the cash, (they wouldn't take check or card or anything else). So I'm looking over the paperwork and I notice that there is a charge for "THEFT, $250.00". So I questioned them about it and have never received an explanation as to what the THEFT charge was for, but it looks like they did end up getting their original price of $2500.00.
Is there any other posible explanation or is it just what it says-------THEFT of $250.00?

Did your friend give you money for the car? If so you did a straw purchase.

 

[CHCRandy]

Not to invalidate your friend's experience (i.e. anecdotal evidence), but a local market and a national market can vary considerably from each other.

My bro is a sales manager at a dealership out of state. We talk about the state of the market quite frequently.

Car Debt is up massively since 2009.

Nearly a third of new car loans are 7 to 8 years.

Total amount of car debt outstanding is at an all time record high.

MORE DATA HERE>


Reasonable people can disagree, but this MBA thinks that we are nearing (or at) the peak of an automotive bubble fueled by credit and cheap interest rates. Automakers have painted themselves in a corner. They raised prices a bunch and then became dependent on long financing terms to sell the vehicles. Which of course means that the buyers are farther upside down for longer. Which means that in order to buy a newer car a few years later, they most go FURTHER upside down while "upgrading" to a faster-depreciating newer vehicle.

My sister's case is not atypical according to my brother. She owes something like 10k on her van more than it's worth, and it's like a 2015. It had a cam failure and she was stuck because she's insanely upside down. How? Simple, she traded in a slightly upside down vehicle on a new one, and proceeded to dig the hole deeper and faster.

Having raised prices too far to sustain sales, the car makers must now lose money on the actual selling price of the car so that they can make money only on the financing. The automakers today are making money mostly off their financing, not their cars. It's become a volume game. They are trying to Wal Mart the industry-- huge volume withe razor thin margins.

Which is why the small dealerships are being squeezed out. They can't move hundreds of units a month, and they actually need to make money on the sales of the cars, they can't lose $50 a car just to feed the Corporate desire to manufacture more car loans.


Be prepared for a MAJOR automotive market bailout debate when the economy turns (as it inevitably will) probably late next year. It might not be in free fall by election time, but I'd be surprised if we aren't having discussions in 2021-2022 eerily reminiscent of the 2008-2009 timeframe.

That information kind of lined up with what my buddy said. F-150 is over 3% of new market share, but only 1.7% leased....where like a Honda Civic is only 2.4% of market share but 3.7% of all leases. I am not doubting you that we have a huge auto bubble....I just kind of wonder how many people finance a $70,000 truck. I guess I can understand financing a $25,000 car a little more than a $70K truck, even though the $70K truck will not depreciate like the car.

 

[Tactically Fat]

I had a Honda Accord that was simply a great car. I was aiming to get 250K on it but in October at 249,6xx a suicidal deer wiped it out. That thing was still running just like new. I'll replace it this spring and will look at used cars first - something like a 2 year old Accord will at the top of my list to look for.

Beware: Almost all newer Accords will have a CVT in them - unless you step up into the pricey 2.0T that has the 10spd auto option. And if you plan on getting another 250k miles out of a vehicle, you do not want one with a CVT - unless you can get it for $5-8k less than a car with a traditional automatic. Chances of a CVT getting to 250k miles are about 50/50. Auto makers are going more and more with CVTs due to manufacturing costs, fuel mileage advantages, and weight savings. At the cost of longevity.

Personally, I suggest a Camry with the 8 spd auto.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Beware: Almost all newer Accords will have a CVT in them - unless you step up into the pricey 2.0T that has the 10spd auto option. And if you plan on getting another 250k miles out of a vehicle, you do not want one with a CVT - unless you can get it for $5-8k less than a car with a traditional automatic. Chances of a CVT getting to 250k miles are about 50/50. Auto makers are going more and more with CVTs due to manufacturing costs, fuel mileage advantages, and weight savings. At the cost of longevity.

Personally, I suggest a Camry with the 8 spd auto.

Agreed. I lost the CVT in my Saturn at only 135k. Pretty much totalled the car. ($8k to repair)

 

[Tactically Fat]

Agreed. I lost the CVT in my Saturn at only 135k. Pretty much totalled the car. ($8k to repair)

Part of that may be due to the fact that Saturn is dead, too.

What does your Forte have in it? Auto or CVT?

I've had to cut out so many cars off the "can buy if needed" list due to blasted CVTs.

 

[nonobaddog]

Beware: Almost all newer Accords will have a CVT in them - unless you step up into the pricey 2.0T that has the 10spd auto option. And if you plan on getting another 250k miles out of a vehicle, you do not want one with a CVT - unless you can get it for $5-8k less than a car with a traditional automatic. Chances of a CVT getting to 250k miles are about 50/50. Auto makers are going more and more with CVTs due to manufacturing costs, fuel mileage advantages, and weight savings. At the cost of longevity.

Personally, I suggest a Camry with the 8 spd auto.

Thanks. I also do not want a CVT yet so I will definitely check out the Camry. I still like manual shift too. I don't plan to get 250K out of any other vehicle. I bought that one from my son with 203K on it just to help him out because he was having trouble selling it. It wasn't a very attractive car. Turned out to be a good deal though but I feel I was lucky with that one. I'm old enough to remember when vehicles were lucky to get 100K so I like my vehicles with low mileage. I usually get trucks and sporty type cars but that Accord sedan was pretty handy.

 

[JettaKnight]

So, is it just that fact that a CVT isn't a handful of metals gears that make them distasteful, or is there a mechanical reason?


Most people who hate them tell me, "They don't feel/sound/act the same [as what I'm used too]."


I would think that if you can make a reliable CVT, that seems like a good thing, no? Doesn't keep the engine in a ideal rev, give you torque almost instantly without hesitation from a gear change...

 

[nonobaddog]

So, is it just that fact that a CVT isn't a handful of metals gears that make them distasteful, or is there a mechanical reason?


Most people who hate them tell me, "They don't feel/sound/act the same [as what I'm used too]."


I would think that if you can make a reliable CVT, that seems like a good thing, no? Doesn't keep the engine in a ideal rev, give you torque almost instantly without hesitation from a gear change...

Yes, CVT is theoretically a good thing for many people - if it lasts. The problem right now is they have a reputation for not lasting.

For me personally I don't like them for every reason you mentioned. It really doesn't have to make sense. It is my money and I will never own one. Like I said, I still like manual transmissions as well as paddle shift automatic.