Explosions at Ariana Grande concert in Manchester, England. Fatalities confirmed

[miguel]

Sweetest Ali, I've had an epiphany!

Just like all Giant Japanese hornets aren't a problem, some of these folks are just law abidn' people trying to get by. It's like Mayberry, only you can't see Aunt Bee's face all that well with that hood over it. Yeah, most folks are just at home, makin' sure the neighborhood is safe for there youngins, just like we used to do!

Gay couple publicly caned under Indonesian region's Sharia law - BBC News

 

[IndyDave1776]

So, I passed up your original suggestion about that.

Tell me what you think the problem was and what Decatur did about it that was so successful. My understanding of the actual history makes your suggestion somewhere between vague and misguided.

The original problem was the denizens of Tripoli and Tunis capturing our merchant ships and doing nice things to the crews like enslaving them or running them through with hooks and hanging them over the city walls to die. We started with a tepid show of force in which Philadelphia was captured, in part due being outperformed and in part due to the crew smugly assuming that appearing on the scene was adequate and not being truly prepared, and then later burned by our forces while riding at anchor. To make a long complex story short and simply (rewinding to the beginning), we had first tried to make friends, which failed miserably. We tried bribing them, which worked until the bribe had arrived, and then over a period of time we applied force. When it was said and done, this ceased to be a problem from the 1830s until the rise of international terrorism in much more recent memory. In recent memory, we have tried appeasement, we have toppled dictators who were or had evolved into becoming stable even if less than savory national leaders, and we have spent incredible amounts of money and blood sending our military in to act like a police force in the middle of a war zone--and then we stand back and let ISIS run roughshod over a large portion of the middle east largely unabated.

 

[HoughMade]

OODA loop. Always a good idea.

Indeed.

As for this attack, they need to find the people responsible and anyone who supported them and eliminate them. Also, like it or not, they need to continue trying to uncover plans for things like this and interrupt them. Blindly striking out at people who were not actually involved in some way is no more intelligent than a bunch of 15 year old girls screaming and rushing about unhinged.

 

[miguel]

The original problem was the denizens of Tripoli and Tunis capturing our merchant ships and doing nice things to the crews like enslaving them or running them through with hooks and hanging them over the city walls to die. We started with a tepid show of force in which Philadelphia was captured, in part due being outperformed and in part due to the crew smugly assuming that appearing on the scene was adequate and not being truly prepared, and then later burned by our forces while riding at anchor. To make a long complex story short and simply (rewinding to the beginning), we had first tried to make friends, which failed miserably. We tried bribing them, which worked until the bribe had arrived, and then over a period of time we applied force. When it was said and done, this ceased to be a problem from the 1830s until the rise of international terrorism in much more recent memory. In recent memory, we have tried appeasement, we have toppled dictators who were or had evolved into becoming stable even if less than savory national leaders, and we have spent incredible amounts of money and blood sending our military in to act like a police force in the middle of a war zone--and then we stand back and let ISIS run roughshod over a large portion of the middle east largely unabated.

I'm with Talal. Of course Talal can go first...

[video=youtube;aARaYjgm_rA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aARaYjgm_rA[/video]

 

[T.Lex]

The original problem was the denizens of Tripoli and Tunis capturing our merchant ships and doing nice things to the crews like enslaving them or running them through with hooks and hanging them over the city walls to die.-

So, just to make sure we're on the same page historically, these were not just the "denizens" of those places. It was an organized, government supported campaign to capture stuff. The human cost was incidental to getting the stuff.

Some key differences:
- gov't support v. lone wolf actions. (Now, if you're saying we should have a boots-on-the-ground presence fighting Daesh, I would not disagree.)
- goal of getting stuff v. goal of unadulterated violence.

...We tried bribing them, which worked until the bribe had arrived, and then over a period of time we applied force. When it was said and done, this ceased to be a problem from the 1830s until the rise of international terrorism in much more recent memory.

I think you're leaving out some important violent movements, such as the anarchists and nihilists. The terrorist attack that started (basically) WWI, for instance.

In recent memory, we have tried appeasement, we have toppled dictators who were or had evolved into becoming stable even if less than savory national leaders, and we have spent incredible amounts of money and blood sending our military in to act like a police force in the middle of a war zone--and then we stand back and let ISIS run roughshod over a large portion of the middle east largely unabated.

I don't disagree, but that's a different issue.

The Barbary Pirates are a poor analytical substitute for modern lone wolf terrorists, IMHO. I am open to being persuaded otherwise, but right now, I just don't see it.

Again, though, if you're talking strictly about Daesh, which looks and acts like a sovereign gov't, then we probably don't disagree.

 

[IndyDave1776]

So, just to make sure we're on the same page historically, these were not just the "denizens" of those places. It was an organized, government supported campaign to capture stuff. The human cost was incidental to getting the stuff.

Some key differences:
- gov't support v. lone wolf actions. (Now, if you're saying we should have a boots-on-the-ground presence fighting Daesh, I would not disagree.)
- goal of getting stuff v. goal of unadulterated violence.



I think you're leaving out some important violent movements, such as the anarchists and nihilists. The terrorist attack that started (basically) WWI, for instance.


I don't disagree, but that's a different issue.

The Barbary Pirates are a poor analytical substitute for modern lone wolf terrorists, IMHO. I am open to being persuaded otherwise, but right now, I just don't see it.

Again, though, if you're talking strictly about Daesh, which looks and acts like a sovereign gov't, then we probably don't disagree.

I believe we could agree on analysis if we agreed on our understanding of the problem. Use of the word 'denizen' was a bit flippant. I am well aware that this was state-sponsored terrorism, as is most that we had seen in recent history until the rise of al-Qaeda and ISIS. The principal difference in our views is that I do not accept terrorists such as these as being true loners. They may not have traveled to the middle east, kissed anyone's ring, or signed a contract, but they have been given and accepted the doctrines of a larger group, often with two-way communication, and acted at the suggestion or direction of the larger group. A lone wolf is just that--lone.

I am deliberately not addressing your other violent movements because they are irrelevant to Islamic terrorism. One could make the argument that the leaders of Tripoli and Tunis used Islam to sanctify and justify actions motivated by material gain as opposed to religious zeal, but you still have a blend of religion and lucre which, while perhaps differing by percentage, are still present, particularly with ISIS. Otherwise, they wouldn't be capturing slaves and jacking people's property. If ISIS and the Barbary Pirates could argue between themselves that they were different, I would believe that the argument would go something like this: "No, we aren't like you. You like taking people's things and killing them. We like to kill people and then take their things."

 

[IndyDave1776]

It is getting to be time to do something resembling work. Have a great day!

 

[Route 45]

THAT is giving the islamofascists what they really want: a reason to keep doing what they're doing.

 

[JTScribe]

T.Lex what would you propose we do so that ISIS and their ilk don't regard us and our children as 'crusaders' any longer?

"This is only the beginning": Sick video shows ISIS jihadist make ominous warning after Manchester Arena blast - Mirror Online

 

[T.Lex]

Sweetest Ali, I've had an epiphany!

Just like all Giant Japanese hornets aren't a problem, some of these folks are just law abidn' people trying to get by. It's like Mayberry, only you can't see Aunt Bee's face all that well with that hood over it. Yeah, most folks are just at home, makin' sure the neighborhood is safe for there youngins, just like we used to do!

Gay couple publicly caned under Indonesian region's Sharia law - BBC News

I've had something of an epiphany, too, thanks to INGO.

Just like all gun owners aren't a problem, some of these folks are just law abidn' people trying to get by. It's like Mayberry, only law enforcement has guns - and one guy only has 1 bullet. Yeah, most folks are just at home, makin' sure the neighborhood is safe for there youngins, just like we used to do!

I believe we could agree on analysis if we agreed on our understanding of the problem. Use of the word 'denizen' was a bit flippant. I am well aware that this was state-sponsored terrorism, as is most that we had seen in recent history until the rise of al-Qaeda and ISIS. The principal difference in our views is that I do not accept terrorists such as these as being true loners. They may not have traveled to the middle east, kissed anyone's ring, or signed a contract, but they have been given and accepted the doctrines of a larger group, often with two-way communication, and acted at the suggestion or direction of the larger group. A lone wolf is just that--lone.

I'm not sure that distinction really gets us anywhere. I hate to keep coming back to the part we seem to agree on (how very unINGOan of me), but part of the answer SHOULD include direct attacks on Daesh with the explicit goal of eliminating it as a state.

Monitoring the communications from Daesh to the collective "us" is a law enforcement mechanism that properly is part of the equation.

Within the constructs of our civil liberties (which I am not inclined to sacrifice), I think we're doing all we can (and probably a tad more than we should) on that side of the equation.

I am deliberately not addressing your other violent movements because they are irrelevant to Islamic terrorism. One could make the argument that the leaders of Tripoli and Tunis used Islam to sanctify and justify actions motivated by material gain as opposed to religious zeal, but you still have a blend of religion and lucre which, while perhaps differing by percentage, are still present, particularly with ISIS. Otherwise, they wouldn't be capturing slaves and jacking people's property. If ISIS and the Barbary Pirates could argue between themselves that they were different, I would believe that the argument would go something like this: "No, we aren't like you. You like taking people's things and killing them. We like to kill people and then take their things."

I think your earlier paragraph is the appropriate rebuttal to this one. To my knowledge - and I'm open to correction on this - the Barbary Pirates did not recruit outside their borders. Well, the slave thing is somewhat different - I don't count that as recruitment. That's slavery.

No, the cancer-like spreading of their ideology is part of what makes them different. The BP attacked whatever ships they could for the booty. (heh heh, who doesn't want booty?) (Too soon?) They didn't have an ideological difference with the West. The had a reallocation of wealth issue.

 

[T.Lex]

T.Lex what would you propose we do so that ISIS and their ilk don't regard us and our children as 'crusaders' any longer?

"This is only the beginning": Sick video shows ISIS jihadist make ominous warning after Manchester Arena blast - Mirror Online

First, continue not being crusaders. But, that leads to the second angle.

Second, fight Daesh on their home turf. Yeah, this raises the spectre of crusades, nation building, and exit strategies.

This is not a problem with a simple solution. But, it includes PR, with the help of our mideast allies. It also includes killing those that need killing, without sacrificing those principles that separate us from the islamofascists.

It will also take a certain degree of humility. Our style of democracy works (mostly) for us. It is not, and should not be, the only template for a stable government.

 

[jedi]

Bingo....
This war has been going on since the beginning of time.
That the current west does not seem to understand this is the problem we have.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Yesterday was the anniversary of the murder of Lee Rigby.

Like 9/11, these guys have an obsession with dates.

 

[indiucky]

these guys have an obsession with dates.

I know....

 

[Route 45]

Bingo....
This war has been going on since the beginning of time.
That the current west does not seem to understand this is the problem we have.

Exactly.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Regarding the Indy 500 discussion here earlier - How do gate checks work for infield parking?

 

[dung]

Is it bad that I read that as infidel parking?

 

[1911ly]

Fox news just announce the name of the murderer. He was "known to police". It seems like most of these nut jobs are on our radar. I can't help but to think a little intervention could have stopped this insanity before it started.

 

[hog slayer]

All the people running out of the stadium would have been better off staying in place.

You mean they shouldn't have bunched up in the fatal funnel? Often enough I maintain first in, last out for just this sort of thing. But, I'm usually not attending an event such as this, either

 

[JTScribe]

Fox news just announce the name of the murderer. He was "known to police". It seems like most of these nut jobs are on our radar. I can't help but to think a little intervention could have stopped this insanity before it started.

They're too busy policing speech on social media to bother with actual threats.