Fishers gas clerk arrested for intimidation, PD says pulled gun on theft suspect

[Tactically Fat]

You think loss to theft is expensive? Wait to you see the bills for a wrongful shoot.

Even the bill for a "good shoot" will probably be $10k +

 

[DRob]

........................

I am more than a little troubled by what I perceive to be questions about "when do I get to shoot someone?"

Me too. Scary!

Changed my sig line because of this thread!

 

[Thegeek]

Theft is not a forcible felony. If Mr. Relford's class includes followup questions, I recommend you contact him again and gain a better understanding of felony vs forcible felony.

That was kind of my point. The common person doesn't know the difference. What's interesting is that this exact example of "walk outside to someone stealing your car" was used in the class.

Such a complicated issue because "reasonable force" is subjective. I'd really like to pick Guy's brain a bit deeper on the matter. In the class, I asked how do you differentiate between someone stealing your vehicle (a felony) and someone in your vehicle to steal stuff (a misdemeanor)? Any modern vehicle is difficult to steal, but the stuff in the glovebox is not. That fact is pretty easy to argue that it's unreasonable to believe they're stealing your vehicle.

 

[HoughMade]

If unlawful force or threat of imminent use of unlawful force is not in the picture, you cannot use any force at all.

Is the person using or attempting to use force against you? If not, use no force against them.

It's not a difficult concept.

Is the force being used against you likely to cause death or serious bodily injury? If yes, up to deadly force is proper.

Theft does not involve force. Robbery does.

It's not about what crimes are called, though. Forget that. It's about what is going on and it is quite logical.

 

[Trigger Time]

Trigger she is very pretty and can probably beat you senseless with that bang stick.

My kinda woman!

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Such a complicated issue because "reasonable force" is subjective..

It can be fuzzy at the edges, but shooting someone over property where there's no threat is a pretty bright line "nope". Ask yourself, "Will I or someone else face death or serious bodily injury if I do not use this force right now?" and you've covered the vast majority of incidents were you should be considering deadly force.

OR... given current events.. could one say that they were acting in defense of a third party by keeping the car from being used as a weapon ??

Can you shoot someone for stealing a cigarette lighter because arson is a thing? The threat must be immediate, not next Tuesday. You also can't go on what might happen without some reasonable evidence that it is about to happen.

My comments weren't really related to shoplifting as I do not now, nor have I ever, clerked in a convenience store. I was just generally complaining that apparently I would have to just stand by and watch as someone cleans out my garage, waiting for police to arrive.

Why? Because a clerk in an incident you have on details about was arrested? You can confront thieves. If they threaten you, then the game changes. Pointing a gun at people for shoplifting who've, apparently, presented no threat =/= confronting someone in your garage, especially if it's an attached garage.

Ah-HAH! I did not know that.

Okay . . . so . . . same scenario. Once "you" climb into the car, does theft then become robbery?

Robbery requires threat or the threat of force against a person. If you climb in and that's it, I would not charge that as robbery. You voluntarily entered and no force was used against you. If a fight erupts in the car, etc. then it would become robbery...technically. Case law supports that if you fight to make an escape from theft it becomes robbery. The prosecutor doesn't always go for it, and at the end of the day they are the ones who get to decide what you're charged with. You might be able to argue kidnapping if they leave with you in it and you've told them not to.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Ah-HAH! I did not know that.

Okay . . . so . . . same scenario. Once "you" climb into the car, does theft then become robbery?

You climb into my car? Well, it would be annoying, but that's not robbery. Think of robbery as a formula (it was my understanding that there would be no math), robbery=assault+theft. You climbing into my truck is not assault or theft.

You'd get peanut butter all over the dash, demand I drive you to a gun game or go for balut, but none of that is a forcible felony and I would have no fear of serious bodily injury or death.

 

[Trigger Time]

Someone opens your car door they just breached your castle. Handle accordingly

 

[lovemachine]

What if I catch someone breaking into my car, and I get physical with them, to stop them. But suddenly they start whooping my butt. Can I draw my gun then? Even though I was the one who started violence?

 

[IndyDave1776]

What if I catch someone breaking into my car, and I get physical with them, to stop them. But suddenly they start whooping my butt. Can I draw my gun then? Even though I was the one who started violence?

How is getting into your own (illegally occupied) car violent? This seems to be on the extreme end of the subject-matter of 'duty to retreat' laws like you find in leftist snowflake states.

 

[lovemachine]

How is getting into your own (illegally occupied) car violent? This seems to be on the extreme end of the subject-matter of 'duty to retreat' laws like you find in leftist snowflake states.

I dunno. Let's change it up then.

I come home at night, and see a guy in the driveway loading my tv up into his truck. So I lay hands on him, to get my tv back. He starts kicking my butt.

Can I draw my gun then? Again, I was the one who started the violent attack, but was getting my butt whooped.

 

[Expat]

Why? Because a clerk in an incident you have on details about was arrested? You can confront thieves. If they threaten you, then the game changes. Pointing a gun at people for shoplifting who've, apparently, presented no threat =/= confronting someone in your garage, especially if it's an attached garage.

Garage is attached. So if I come home and someone is taking stuff from my garage, I can draw my firearm and attempt to hold them until police arrive. No, I am not looking for an excuse to shoot someone, but neither do I have any interest in attempting to relive my wrestling glory from 40+ years ago.

 

[eldirector]

My understanding:

So, someone is committing a non-violent crime, and you yell "Hey! Stop!". If they run off, its is over. If they escalate and choose to attack you, you can defend yourself with deadly force, as they are now committing a forcible felony (assault).

 

[HoughMade]

My understanding:

So, someone is committing a non-violent crime, and you yell "Hey! Stop!". If they run off, its is over. If they escalate and choose to attack you, you can defend yourself with deadly force, as they are now committing a forcible felony (assault).

That can't be right. It's too logical and simple.

 

[Expat]

That can't be right. It's too logical and simple.

I haven't been confident of our new prosecutor's logic or the the prior guy to a lesser extent...

 

[lovemachine]

I was just curious. Honestly, if I saw someone coming out of my house with my TV, that's ok. Just gives me an excuse to buy a new one....

 

[IndyDave1776]

That can't be right. It's too logical and simple.

If we are going with 'logical and simple', let's go all in. I own a backhoe. All problems solved!

 

[Expat]

I was just curious. Honestly, if I saw someone coming out of my house with my TV, that's ok. Just gives me an excuse to buy a new one....

Below my deductible

 

[Trigger Time]

I wonder if the clerk was being belligerent with the officers or why they stuck him with this? Turning a regular good guy into a criminal just seems like a dick move. Does anyone really care if a bad guy had a gun pointed at them? I don't hopefully the prosecutor will drop the charges or there is a thing called jury nullification

 

[printcraft]

....Turning a regular good guy into a criminal just seems like a dick move. ......

Agreed.